The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby thkthebest on Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:36 am

ccameron wrote:Hmmm...in the 2011 western conference finals against the Thunder, Dirk averaged 12.2 free throw attempts (24, 10, 3, 15, 9). That game where he had 24 free throw attempts, he had 15 field goal attempts. That despite not being an attacker AT ALL. Nothing wrong with that, is there?

Wade averages 16.1 free throw attempts (10, 14, 18, 9, 25, 21) in the 2006 finals series while relentlessly attacking, Shaq on his team, and the Mavs employing the strategy of constantly fouling. Yep, seems fishy to me!

I'm wasting my time, but just to show you all how little you are actually looking into this, let's do some deeper analysis here. Compare Dirk's 61 total free throw attempts in that 5 game series against the Thunder in 2011, to his total of 88 total field goal attempts. As a percentage of free throw attempts compared to field goal attempts, thats 69.3%. That is ridiculous for someone who takes a bunch of fadeaway jump shots and hardly ever drives.

blablablabla

Did you even watch the series? Your stats are extremely flawed because you're employing the general perception of two players and applying it to a playoff series. Playoff series have specific plans and matchups. It's different from the regular season.

Maybe a majority of fans aren't clamoring away about the Thunder/Mavericks series because they saw the series and the officiating seemed fine. Maybe. Just maybe. Players like TMac are calling the Dallas/Heat series rigged because they watched the games, and the officiating seemed absurdly in favor of the Heat. Lets take a look at some stats.

According to you, Dirk mainly shot fadeaways while Wade relentlessly attacked the basket. Dirk is not an attacker at all while Wade is constantly attacking, right? Hmm...

Dirk (5 games):
61 free throws
38 shots in the paint
12.2 free throws per game
7.6 shots in the paint per game.

Wade (6 games)
97 free throws
30 shots in the paint
16.2 free throws per game
5 shots in the paint per game

You make all these baseless claims. The Mavericks were "purposely" fouling. Right. I'm sure it was their strategy to give Wade 16+ free throws per game. You claim that Wade was attacking relentlessly while Dirk was shooting fadeaways. Right. Except Dirk attempted 8 more shots in the paint in LESS games than Wade.

You also have to remember that people weren't calling games 1 and 2 rigged. It began happening in game 3, and no, he didn't attempt more shots at the rim in game 3. It actually went down (depending on how you look at it).

Take a look at the numerous bad calls in Wade's championship run. Now, go and find me the numerous bad calls Dirk got in his run.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:25 pm

Sorry guys, things got really busy at work and decided to take hiatus because this was taking up to much time. Couple things I want to respond to.

abeer3 wrote:if dirk got the whistles wade got in the same series, he's got two rings. haslem and posey practically hogtied him, and he shot just over half as many fts as wade. it's not just the sheer amount of crazy calls in his favor; it's the lack of same for the opponent (in the 2011 series in question, durant shot nearly as many fts as dirk, for example).

2006 will always have an asterisk in many fans' books. i know i'll never allow anyone in my presence (virtual or otherwise) to say that wade had an epic series that year without providing the standard rebuttal. imo, that's re-writing history (i realize you don't share the opinion). it's not just dallas trollz, either. it's most sensible followers of the game that were sickened by that display.

btw, we can all thank that series for what we get to watch from james harden these days. it was then that "drawing fouls" became a legitimate nba skill.


Why? Why give Dirk the same amount of free throws? Is there some sort of rule that the opposing star player must get the same amount of free throws?

thkthebest wrote:Did you even watch the series? Your stats are extremely flawed because you're employing the general perception of two players and applying it to a playoff series. Playoff series have specific plans and matchups. It's different from the regular season....

According to you, Dirk mainly shot fadeaways while Wade relentlessly attacked the basket. Dirk is not an attacker at all while Wade is constantly attacking, right? Hmm...

Dirk (5 games):
61 free throws
38 shots in the paint
12.2 free throws per game
7.6 shots in the paint per game.

Wade (6 games)
97 free throws
30 shots in the paint
16.2 free throws per game
5 shots in the paint per game


No, I didn’t watch the entire Thunder/Mavericks series. Only pieces of it. My point was never to say any of the particular calls were bad. It was to say that the sheer number of fouls doesn’t prove anything. There is nothing flawed with my stats: Dirk shot 61 free throw attempts on 88 field goal attempts in the 2011 western conference finals, and Wade had 97 free throw attempts on 139 field goal attempts in the '06 finals. The only point was that if you put the ball in Dirk’s hands and let him shoot as much as Wade did, he would have gotten almost the exact same amount of free throws as Wade in a 6 game series. The point: the total number of free throws proves nothing. Dirk gets a free pass, and Wade doesn’t. There is nothing misleading about my use of stats.

You’re use of stats, on the other hand, is misleading. Your “shots in the paint” number doesn’t include the attempts that ended up in a foul, if the shot didn’t actually go in. Are you actually trying to convince anyone that Dirk was just as or more aggressive than Wade in ’06, or that with his playing style you would expect more fouls? Nobody buys that. But my point still stands, the way Wade was playing you would expect more fouls than Dirk.

thkthebest wrote:You make all these baseless claims. The Mavericks were "purposely" fouling. Right. I'm sure it was their strategy to give Wade 16+ free throws per game. You claim that Wade was attacking relentlessly while Dirk was shooting fadeaways. Right. Except Dirk attempted 8 more shots in the paint in LESS games than Wade.

Maybe a majority of fans aren't clamoring away about the Thunder/Mavericks series because they saw the series and the officiating seemed fine. Maybe. Just maybe. Players like TMac are calling the Dallas/Heat series rigged because they watched the games, and the officiating seemed absurdly in favor of the Heat. Lets take a look at some stats....


Baseless? Ok, this is the part that just drives me through the ceiling. Let's see whose claims are baseless. My last resort is to take it game by game. I apologize to everyone in advance that this is turned into another debate about the 2006 finals, but there is no way to counteract all the ignorance here than to get into specific detail about individual foul calls. I didn't steer the conversation here. Beyond this there is nothing else to say.

thkthebest wrote:You also have to remember that people weren't calling games 1 and 2 rigged. It began happening in game 3, and no, he didn't attempt more shots at the rim in game 3. It actually went down (depending on how you look at it).


Game 3 is where it started to get fishy, huh? Why, because the heat won? Funny, I don’t remember anyone complaining about game 3. Maybe you just looked at the fact that the Heat won and the fact that Wade got 18 free throw attempts, and without looking into it further, concluded there was something wrong. Watch game 3, please. Wade had 15 free throw attempts in the first three quarters, but the Heat were down by 12 points with 8 and a half minutes to go in the 4th quarter. Remember that epic comeback that Wade put on in those final 8 minutes of the 4th? 1 free throw attempt. Only 3 in the whole fourth quarter. But the refs gave him that one, too, right? Please show me what was fishy about game 3. Show me what the refs gave him. What bad call are you pointing to in game 3? Because up until now, I have not heard any complaints about game 3.

Game 4, Wade puts on another epic comeback, and attempted 9 free throws the entire game. Nobody complains about game 4 either. But you seem to think every game the Heat won was suspect. Please show me, again, what is wrong with game 4. What foul call do you have a problem with? You have a whole army of Dallas Internet Trolls at your disposal, eager to discredit Wade and make excuses. I can’t find anything. You are the one making baseless claims here.

Game 5 Wade gets 25 free throw attempts – not unheard of, as I already showed you. And out of those 25 free throws, what foul are people upset with in Game 5? What is the horrible officiating that all the Dallas Internet Trolls are up in arms about? What abysmal calls from a crooked ref could have so vehemently called down the ire of Tracy McGrady? Only this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8lct4Y2FQI

From another angle, this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTKxxsDuDas

First, before getting into it, I just want to note, it’s one foul. I can’t find more complaints about fouls in game 5. Even supposing I granted it was a bad call, it would mean nothing – every game has 1 bad call. But I don’t grant it to you. No sensible person who looks into it will grant it to you. Can you tell from the video whether it was a foul or not? Even in the horrible quality videos, this looked like a normal call. And then I found these pictures showing that it was definitely a foul, in more ways than one:

The arm grab:

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/11 ... de_600.jpg

Pushing from the back by Dirk:

http://i6.tinypic.com/14vo5n7.jpg

Leg block: http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7888/foul8sx.gif

All on one play. You can complain all you want that they shouldn’t call that a foul in the last seconds of a game, but it was a foul, and I don’t see why you wouldn’t call it. The pictures show there was a lot more contact than you would think from the horrible quality Dallas fan’s youtube video.

Here’s an ESPN article just about that one call that Dallas fans were up in arms about:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_ ... 006-finals

Since it is an old article, some of the videos are no longer linked correctly, but here is a quote from the article. When they analyzed a high quality slow motion replay of the call and watched it with Salvatore, the referee who called the foul, and a group of people in the room, he says this:

Roll it one time watching nothing but Dirk Nowitzki's right hand. Then watch again, and this time watch Wade jump, shoot, and land. Everything about that motion -- the way the ball leaves Wade's hand with too much forward force, the way he lands stumbling, and the way Nowitzki's hand plainly shoves Wade -- it's all consistent with a guy who has been pushed in the small of the back while jumping to shoot. It's minor contact compared to a lot of things you see on a basketball court. But it's contact that makes making a layup nearly impossible. It's the kind of contact NBA referees are looking for. To my eyes, it's a real deal NBA foul.

I watched it with Salvatore. Frankly, everyone in the room, looking at this video, thought it was a decent call. He [Salvatore] added: ‘I want you to do one thing. Look at Dirk. Dirk knows that he fouled him. You don't see any reaction from Dirk at all. Dirk knew.


That, the most complained about call, and it was actually correct. A game deciding call, no doubt, and that is why people were upset. But a correct call. The refs handed the series to Wade? Get out of here.

Game 6 is the only real controversy, but I’ve posted the video about already. I’ll plug it again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2zonUdXJkQ

There were five fouls people complain about in that game. 2 of them definitely were fouls, 1 of them also a foul, if you agree with the coach in the video, but reasonable minds can disagree. But yes, 2 of them at least were bad calls. But also there were two no calls where Wade got majorly hacked with no call, and no one can deny that. Balanced out, that’s not much of an impact that the refs made, even in that game.

To sum up, almost every single call was a good call in that series. Take away all the complained about fouls, that’s still a lot of fouls. If you ask which fouls people think were bad, people point to only a few out of so many. And you cannot deny that out of those few complained about calls, most of them were in fact good calls, and that the controversy is in fact MUCH smaller than people make it out to be. You are talking about only a couple bad calls in the whole series. People have shown me 2, maybe 3 calls in the entire series that are bad calls, almost all in game 6. And, in that game 6, several blatant no calls where Wade should have gotten the call, but didn’t.

And you want to sell me that not only game 6, but 3, 4, and 5 were handed to Wade by the refs? Because Tmac complained?

Whenever anyone starts saying the Mavs deserved to win that series, I KNOW that person either didn’t watch it, or has chosen to completely rewrite history in their minds. The Mavs played bad defense, and shot poorly in the fourth quarters. Bottom line: Wade was the best player on the court. Wade deserved finals MVP. The Heat played better than the Mavs. No asterisks. No buts. End of story.

You have been vanquished, sir!

BTW, no offense to the natives of Dallas. I’ve been there, very nice people. I refer to Dallas Internet Trolls, but I’ve met a number of reasonable Dallas fans. And many who admit, despite not liking a couple calls, that Wade was a beast and that the Mavs came up short. You all should do the same.
Last edited by ccameron on Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Weezy on Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:25 pm

You can type til your fingers hurt, but I watched all those games, you couldn't say "boogety boogety boo" to Wade without a foul. I'm not saying at all that the Mavs deserved to win, the Heat turned things around and got contributions from all the old vets too. All I'm saying is you couldn't breathe on Wade then and for years after, even with as much as he went to the rim, Rasheed didn't say that quote above for no reason.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:00 pm

Weezy wrote:You can type til your fingers hurt, but I watched all those games, you couldn't say "boogety boogety boo" to Wade without a foul. I'm not saying at all that the Mavs deserved to win, the Heat turned things around and got contributions from all the old vets too. All I'm saying is you couldn't breathe on Wade then and for years after, even with as much as he went to the rim, Rasheed didn't say that quote above for no reason.


Dang, I knew because I typed so much that this was going to be the response and people wouldn't read it. It's just as well, I'm too busy to keep doing this anyway.

Well, you can say all you want about breathing on Wade without a foul, but I don't want to hear anyone saying the refs gave him the finals, or about how many free throws he got, without people actually analyzing the fouls themselves before they complain. I already did that above, so I'm done with that.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby abeer3 on Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:37 pm

yeah, they were handed the finals on the back of horribly biased officiating in favor of the one and only d-whistle. it was a joke.

no amount of equally biased retrospection is going to affect my opinion. i know what i saw, and so do most others.

as for the opus: i view it as a case of protesting too much. i get it, though. i would be massively conflicted if my team was handed a title by shady officiating. i don't feel particularly great about the lakers/kings game in which the lakers shot an impossible amount of fts, and i'd probably be tempted to rationalize it to death if others brought it up.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Weezy on Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:51 pm

Oh, no I read all of it, I just can't respond to a page with a page, just not my thing. I respect your stance, I respect your being cool here on a Laker board where that is not easy to do for opposing fans, I just meant I saw what I saw and that's my take.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:05 am

abeer3 wrote:yeah, they were handed the finals on the back of horribly biased officiating in favor of the one and only d-whistle. it was a joke.

no amount of equally biased retrospection is going to affect my opinion. i know what i saw, and so do most others.

as for the opus: i view it as a case of protesting too much. i get it, though. i would be massively conflicted if my team was handed a title by shady officiating. i don't feel particularly great about the lakers/kings game in which the lakers shot an impossible amount of fts, and i'd probably be tempted to rationalize it to death if others brought it up.


:bang: Nothing for me to be conflicted about. You can keep saying how biased it was, but anyone who looks at the actual calls knows they were pretty much good calls. I'm done with that.

Meanwhile, woke up this morning and saw that Kobe had the most interesting stat line last night: 14 points on 7-10 shooting, 9 rebounds, 14 assists, 3 steals, 1 block. That is what I call efficient. But maybe there is another thread to discuss that?

And Wade, as I've been predicting, is playing like a beast again.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:08 am

Weezy wrote:Oh, no I read all of it, I just can't respond to a page with a page, just not my thing. I respect your stance, I respect your being cool here on a Laker board where that is not easy to do for opposing fans, I just meant I saw what I saw and that's my take.


I admire your restraint then. I'm gonna try to follow that example :bow:

P.S. Looking back, Holy crap that post of mine was long.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby abeer3 on Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:01 am

you can keep saying how unbiased it was, but that won't change the facts (see, two can play this game).

luckily, we won't have to see that again, as wade is now ensconced in his rightful second banana role.

as for the claim of vindication on wade's current status...i think we can wait a while before we can say anything definitive. he's probably among the top two or three second bananas in the nba, though (i personally prefer westbrook at this point, but i can see arguments the other way).
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:58 pm

abeer3 wrote:you can keep saying how unbiased it was, but that won't change the facts (see, two can play this game).

luckily, we won't have to see that again, as wade is now ensconced in his rightful second banana role.

as for the claim of vindication on wade's current status...i think we can wait a while before we can say anything definitive. he's probably among the top two or three second bananas in the nba, though (i personally prefer westbrook at this point, but i can see arguments the other way).


Yeah, I'm just going to point out the obvious that I am the one looking at the facts (the actual foul calls). You are the one talking in generalities. And apparently no amount of facts will change your opinion.

Not going to respond to the banana stuff -- I think you are just trying to troll me.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby abeer3 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:31 am

the second banana stuff is fact (or at least opinion with 99% consensus). and yes, i did it to annoy you. ;)

your re-analysis of a handful of calls is opinion (with much less consensus). i don't need to play the montage of bad calls because it's been done to death, and is obvious to (most) anyone. i don't need to call witnesses to counter your handful (including the marvelously unbiased bennet salvatore!), because it's well-documented that several coaches (e.g., phil jackson), many players, and many others who get paid to work in or analyze basketball (and had no stake in the outcome) have come out and said what a sham the 2006 finals were.

looking at the bark of a single tree or two is obscuring the forest here, perhaps purposely. and i don't think it's ignorance (as you suggested earlier). perhaps people have attended to and discounted your evidence the way you had to discount our sense of reality in order to consider (and go searching for) that evidence in the first place.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby v1n5anity on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:20 am





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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Congo Cash on Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:39 pm

94 FTs, if MJ was still playing that time, he would be jealous...

No amount of rationalization (mostly biased that is) will change my mind, I watched the whole series and that was DISGUSTING to watch...
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Nikez on Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:39 pm

^^^^

That's what this guy a few posts above doesn't get, no offense.

When you watched the series, if you were a fan of neither team and really, really, just watched because it's basketball, you kept thinking about how many ghost whistles d wade kept getting it was a big momentum ft's as well.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Finwë on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:38 pm

I watched the games and felt the same way (Wade got ultra-god-star treatment).
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Iceberg Slim on Tue May 14, 2013 7:03 am

Bump

So I wanted to revisit the initial OP of this thread for obvious reason. Dwyane Wade is back to his usual unhealthy antics, wheelchairing it up the floor while Lebron speed skates behind him, holding on to the handles.

I've been on record that I consider the NBA to have 6 superstar level players.

1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3. Durant
4. Paul
5. Parker

Which brings me to Wade...who when healthy, is nothing short of the prestigious title. But right now, he's a decent role player who happens to start. The offseason surgery was supposed to fix this. But to no avail, Wade is right back where he was around this time last year against Indiana. In a strange sense of irony, he'll probably be seeing them again next round in the same condition.

A look at his numbers...

Regular season: 21.2 ppg, 5.0 rebounds, 5.1 apg, 1.9 spg, 52 fg%

Against Chicago: 11.3 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 4.5 assists on 50% fg. Last night, he recorded 6 points, 4 assists, and 3 rebounds on 3-10 shooting and shot 0 free throws.

For the playoffs, he's averaging 12.3 ppg, 4.7 rpg, and 5.3 apg on 43.9 fg%.

Needless to say, Lebron is playing with only one all-star caliber teammate for the rest of the playoffs. That's not to give him any props for beating Chicago. They are dismantled. They SHOULD be up 3-1 with 2.5 all-stars against a star-less Bulls squad. But facing the Pacers will be a hard fought 6/7 game series. I'm leaning 7. And if anyone believes that San Antonio will eventually put those young pups to bed (which is probable) then Miami doesn't have the cake walk that everyone has been crying about. Wade looks 50% and Pop, Duncan, Parker, and Manu will be looking at what is considered their last hurrah with Duncan at the helm.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Congo Cash on Tue May 14, 2013 8:18 am

Yeah, without his free throws, he is just an average player...

Can't shoot threes, shaky jumpshot, and not that great defensively...
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Iceberg Slim on Tue May 14, 2013 8:23 am

^Let's not over-exaggerate or hate. Wade is probably the 3rd best shooting guard of all-time. At worst 4th behind Clyde Drexler. His only true issue is that he needs to be handled like fine china.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby therealdeal on Tue May 14, 2013 9:41 am

I'd put him behind Drex at this point, but it's close.

The guy's body is just failing and that's what everyone thought would happen eventually. PED rumors aside, the man plays recklessly. He never developed that finely tuned jump shot that was so deadly he could rely on it consistently. He has always attacked the rim and attacked defensively without enough concern for himself.

Now he's paying the price just like many thought he would. I'm not closing his book for another couple of years, but it's not looking great.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Tue May 14, 2013 9:49 am

In the short-term, I still think Miami does win the Finals. Lebron's the best player in the world & Bosh is still a stud. They have shooters galore on that team, and I just don't see Miami losing to anybody in the West right now. WTS, if you take a longer-term view on this, I don't think Wade has very much longer on those knees. He was breaking down last year during this time. This is the Heat's 3rd straight deep playoff run and that alone adds miles to your body, obviously. I think he has 2 more years, max.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Tue May 14, 2013 10:27 am

I'd be surprised if Miami wins next year. The vets Battier, Allen, and Lewis will start to fade after this deep playoff run. Wade is fading too, and could use a year off playoff-wise next year. Besides, it will be their 3rd consecutive trip to the finals this year, and we know how hard that 4th year is to keep it together physically and mentally.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Rooscooter on Tue May 14, 2013 11:31 am

Wade has had an unusual career. He's dominated like few have offensively and defensively.... he's been a leader and won games/series nearly single handedly and he's folded like a Walmart Lawn Chair at times. He's cried like only Chris Paul can and he's shown dedication and real leadership.....

I think his longevity (or lack there of) will keep him from my top 5 SG's.

Jordan, Kobe, Maravich, West, Drexler, Wade, Sharman, Gervin and even Iverson (depending on position definition). Even being in that conversation is an amazing accomplishment.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Tue May 14, 2013 12:06 pm

Yep, there's something to be said about longevity. Some players go at 110% for a few good years, and then their bodies break down. Bill Walton, Brandon Roy, and now D Wade. It's fun to watch while it lasts, though.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby revgen on Tue May 14, 2013 12:41 pm

therealdeal wrote: He never developed that finely tuned jump shot that was so deadly he could rely on it consistently. He has always attacked the rim and attacked defensively without enough concern for himself.


It's not just the lack of a J. It's the lack of footwork too. That's why Kobe and MJ stayed effective into their 30's. Without athleticism, you need footwork to create separation from the defender.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby therealdeal on Tue May 14, 2013 1:07 pm

revgen wrote:
therealdeal wrote: He never developed that finely tuned jump shot that was so deadly he could rely on it consistently. He has always attacked the rim and attacked defensively without enough concern for himself.


It's not just the lack of a J. It's the lack of footwork too. That's why Kobe and MJ stayed effective into their 30's. Without athleticism, you need footwork to create separation from the defender.

True, but that just furthers my point. While I wouldn't say he didn't work hard, he never seemed to put the work in the places he needed it as he aged.
Stu : "Yeah, that's an old fashioned whoopin'."
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