Sorry guys, things got really busy at work and decided to take hiatus because this was taking up to much time. Couple things I want to respond to.
abeer3 wrote:if dirk got the whistles wade got in the same series, he's got two rings. haslem and posey practically hogtied him, and he shot just over half as many fts as wade. it's not just the sheer amount of crazy calls in his favor; it's the lack of same for the opponent (in the 2011 series in question, durant shot nearly as many fts as dirk, for example).
2006 will always have an asterisk in many fans' books. i know i'll never allow anyone in my presence (virtual or otherwise) to say that wade had an epic series that year without providing the standard rebuttal. imo, that's re-writing history (i realize you don't share the opinion). it's not just dallas trollz, either. it's most sensible followers of the game that were sickened by that display.
btw, we can all thank that series for what we get to watch from james harden these days. it was then that "drawing fouls" became a legitimate nba skill.
Why? Why give Dirk the same amount of free throws? Is there some sort of rule that the opposing star player must get the same amount of free throws?
thkthebest wrote:Did you even watch the series? Your stats are extremely flawed because you're employing the general perception of two players and applying it to a playoff series. Playoff series have specific plans and matchups. It's different from the regular season....
According to you, Dirk mainly shot fadeaways while Wade relentlessly attacked the basket. Dirk is not an attacker at all while Wade is constantly attacking, right? Hmm...
Dirk (5 games):
61 free throws
38 shots in the paint
12.2 free throws per game
7.6 shots in the paint per game.
Wade (6 games)
97 free throws
30 shots in the paint
16.2 free throws per game
5 shots in the paint per game
No, I didn’t watch the entire Thunder/Mavericks series. Only pieces of it. My point was never to say any of the particular calls were bad. It was to say that the sheer number of fouls doesn’t prove anything. There is nothing flawed with my stats: Dirk shot 61 free throw attempts on 88 field goal attempts in the 2011 western conference finals, and Wade had 97 free throw attempts on 139 field goal attempts in the '06 finals. The only point was that if you put the ball in Dirk’s hands and let him shoot as much as Wade did, he would have gotten almost the exact same amount of free throws as Wade in a 6 game series. The point: the total number of free throws proves nothing. Dirk gets a free pass, and Wade doesn’t. There is nothing misleading about my use of stats.
You’re use of stats, on the other hand, is misleading. Your “shots in the paint” number doesn’t include the attempts that ended up in a foul, if the shot didn’t actually go in. Are you actually trying to convince anyone that Dirk was just as or more aggressive than Wade in ’06, or that with his playing style you would expect more fouls? Nobody buys that. But my point still stands, the way Wade was playing you would expect more fouls than Dirk.
thkthebest wrote:You make all these baseless claims. The Mavericks were "purposely" fouling. Right. I'm sure it was their strategy to give Wade 16+ free throws per game. You claim that Wade was attacking relentlessly while Dirk was shooting fadeaways. Right. Except Dirk attempted 8 more shots in the paint in LESS games than Wade.
Maybe a majority of fans aren't clamoring away about the Thunder/Mavericks series because they saw the series and the officiating seemed fine. Maybe. Just maybe. Players like TMac are calling the Dallas/Heat series rigged because they watched the games, and the officiating seemed absurdly in favor of the Heat. Lets take a look at some stats....
Baseless? Ok, this is the part that just drives me through the ceiling. Let's see whose claims are baseless. My last resort is to take it game by game. I apologize to everyone in advance that this is turned into another debate about the 2006 finals, but there is no way to counteract all the ignorance here than to get into specific detail about individual foul calls. I didn't steer the conversation here. Beyond this there is nothing else to say.
thkthebest wrote:You also have to remember that people weren't calling games 1 and 2 rigged. It began happening in game 3, and no, he didn't attempt more shots at the rim in game 3. It actually went down (depending on how you look at it).
Game 3 is where it started to get fishy, huh? Why, because the heat won? Funny, I don’t remember anyone complaining about game 3. Maybe you just looked at the fact that the Heat won and the fact that Wade got 18 free throw attempts, and without looking into it further, concluded there was something wrong. Watch game 3, please. Wade had 15 free throw attempts in the first three quarters, but the Heat were down by 12 points with 8 and a half minutes to go in the 4th quarter. Remember that epic comeback that Wade put on in those final 8 minutes of the 4th? 1 free throw attempt. Only 3 in the whole fourth quarter. But the refs gave him that one, too, right? Please show me what was fishy about game 3. Show me what the refs gave him. What bad call are you pointing to in game 3? Because up until now, I have not heard any complaints about game 3.
Game 4, Wade puts on another epic comeback, and attempted 9 free throws the entire game. Nobody complains about game 4 either. But you seem to think every game the Heat won was suspect. Please show me, again, what is wrong with game 4. What foul call do you have a problem with? You have a whole army of Dallas Internet Trolls at your disposal, eager to discredit Wade and make excuses. I can’t find anything. You are the one making baseless claims here.
Game 5 Wade gets 25 free throw attempts – not unheard of, as I already showed you. And out of those 25 free throws, what foul are people upset with in Game 5? What is the horrible officiating that all the Dallas Internet Trolls are up in arms about? What abysmal calls from a crooked ref could have so vehemently called down the ire of Tracy McGrady? Only this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8lct4Y2FQI
From another angle, this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTKxxsDuDas
First, before getting into it, I just want to note, it’s one foul. I can’t find more complaints about fouls in game 5. Even supposing I granted it was a bad call, it would mean nothing – every game has 1 bad call. But I don’t grant it to you. No sensible person who looks into it will grant it to you. Can you tell from the video whether it was a foul or not? Even in the horrible quality videos, this looked like a normal call. And then I found these pictures showing that it was definitely a foul, in more ways than one:
The arm grab:http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/11 ... de_600.jpg
Pushing from the back by Dirk: http://i6.tinypic.com/14vo5n7.jpg
Leg block: http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7888/foul8sx.gif
All on one play. You can complain all you want that they shouldn’t call that a foul in the last seconds of a game, but it was a foul, and I don’t see why you wouldn’t call it. The pictures show there was a lot more contact than you would think from the horrible quality Dallas fan’s youtube video.
Here’s an ESPN article just about that one call that Dallas fans were up in arms about:http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_ ... 006-finals
Since it is an old article, some of the videos are no longer linked correctly, but here is a quote from the article. When they analyzed a high quality slow motion replay of the call and watched it with Salvatore, the referee who called the foul, and a group of people in the room, he says this:
Roll it one time watching nothing but Dirk Nowitzki's right hand. Then watch again, and this time watch Wade jump, shoot, and land. Everything about that motion -- the way the ball leaves Wade's hand with too much forward force, the way he lands stumbling, and the way Nowitzki's hand plainly shoves Wade -- it's all consistent with a guy who has been pushed in the small of the back while jumping to shoot. It's minor contact compared to a lot of things you see on a basketball court. But it's contact that makes making a layup nearly impossible. It's the kind of contact NBA referees are looking for. To my eyes, it's a real deal NBA foul.
I watched it with Salvatore. Frankly, everyone in the room, looking at this video, thought it was a decent call. He [Salvatore] added: ‘I want you to do one thing. Look at Dirk. Dirk knows that he fouled him. You don't see any reaction from Dirk at all. Dirk knew.
That, the most complained about call, and it was actually correct. A game deciding call, no doubt, and that is why people were upset. But a correct call. The refs handed the series to Wade? Get out of here.
Game 6 is the only real controversy, but I’ve posted the video about already. I’ll plug it again:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2zonUdXJkQ
There were five fouls people complain about in that game. 2 of them definitely were fouls, 1 of them also a foul, if you agree with the coach in the video, but reasonable minds can disagree. But yes, 2 of them at least were bad calls. But also there were two no calls where Wade got majorly hacked with no call, and no one can deny that. Balanced out, that’s not much of an impact that the refs made, even in that game.
To sum up, almost every single call was a good call in that series. Take away all the complained about fouls, that’s still a lot of fouls. If you ask which fouls people think were bad, people point to only a few out of so many. And you cannot deny that out of those few complained about calls, most of them were in fact good calls, and that the controversy is in fact MUCH smaller than people make it out to be
. You are talking about only a couple bad calls in the whole series. People have shown me 2, maybe 3 calls in the entire series that are bad calls, almost all in game 6. And, in that game 6, several blatant no calls where Wade should have gotten the call, but didn’t.
And you want to sell me that not only game 6, but 3, 4, and 5 were handed to Wade by the refs? Because Tmac complained?
Whenever anyone starts saying the Mavs deserved to win that series, I KNOW that person either didn’t watch it, or has chosen to completely rewrite history in their minds. The Mavs played bad defense, and shot poorly in the fourth quarters. Bottom line: Wade was the best player on the court. Wade deserved finals MVP. The Heat played better than the Mavs. No asterisks. No buts. End of story.
You have been vanquished, sir!
BTW, no offense to the natives of Dallas. I’ve been there, very nice people. I refer to Dallas Internet Trolls, but I’ve met a number of reasonable Dallas fans. And many who admit, despite not liking a couple calls, that Wade was a beast and that the Mavs came up short. You all should do the same.