The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:56 pm

Ok my final post and ill give it a rest. I'm not trying to bother Lakeland. But here goes my last illustration.: people often compared Derrick rose to wade. As much as I want to say wade is in "another stratosphere" than rose, I can't, nor can I laugh at the comparison. Now, make no mistake, I think wade was and is clearly better than rose, over whatever 4 seasons you want to compare. Rose averaged less points than wade with a worse field goal percentage than Kobe. Statistically the gap between wade and rose is bigger than the gap between wade and Kobe. But I cannot say wade is in another stratosphere than rose. Rose is up there. And if he continues to play at this level when he comes back, he deserves he comparisons. Wade deserves the comparisons even more. And by the way, he has been compared to Jordan as well, not just to kobe, if you remember. So my only point -- enough with the stratosphere stuff, it's just not born out by the facts.
ccameron

 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:58 pm

Ok my final post and ill give it a rest. I'm not trying to bother Lakeland. But here goes my last illustration.: people often compared Derrick rose to wade. As much as I want to say wade is in "another stratosphere" than rose, I can't, nor can I laugh at the comparison. Now, make no mistake, I think wade was and is clearly better than rose, over whatever 4 seasons you want to compare. Rose averaged less points than wade with a worse field goal percentage than Kobe. Statistically the gap between wade and rose is bigger than the gap between wade and Kobe. But I cannot say wade is in another stratosphere than rose. Rose is up there. And if he continues to play at this level when he comes back, he deserves he comparisons. Wade deserves the comparisons even more. And by the way, he has been compared to Jordan as well, not just to kobe, if you remember. So my only point -- enough with the stratosphere stuff, it's just not born out by the facts.
ccameron

 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby John3:16 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:59 pm

Where is Wade on the all time scoring list?

Where is Wade on the all time playoff scoring list?

Where is Kobe?

Game, Set, Stratosphere.
Image
User avatar
John3:16
CL Global Moderator
 
Posts: 31868
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 12:23 am
Location: Anywhere but LD after a loss.

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:03 pm

abeer3 wrote:lol at a heat fan denying that the refs handed them the 06 finals. what a joke.

wade's never been on kobe's level, and he won't get there as lebron's cabana boy.


Fine, I'll bite. Please watch this video about how much the refs influenced the finals in 06:

www.bballbreakdown.com/2006-nba-finals- ... -the-refs/

That is, if you're actually interested and not just trolling. If your not interested, them stop talking about the refs in 06. Wade was a beast, and anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves.
ccameron

 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby abeer3 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:03 pm

unless you want to get into a philosophical debate about which set of stats are more valid, i'd suggest you don't bother. pretty much everyone outside south florida knows who's on which level. it doesn't take a calculator to figure it out.
abeer3

 
Posts: 10407
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:15 pm

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:07 pm

John3:16 wrote:Where is Wade on the all time scoring list?

Where is Wade on the all time playoff scoring list?

Where is Kobe?

Game, Set, Stratosphere.


You keep Using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I'm not going to explain again why there is more to basketball than points per game. But since that is the only argument any if you actually seem to have based on facts, do you want to k ow how many more points Kobe averaged over his career than wade? 0.6. and that, ladies and gentleman, is where Kobe's advantage ends. pretty small stratosphere.
Last edited by ccameron on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
ccameron

 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:15 pm

abeer3 wrote:unless you want to get into a philosophical debate about which set of stats are more valid, i'd suggest you don't bother. pretty much everyone outside south florida knows who's on which level. it doesn't take a calculator to figure it out.


Ok, ya'll gave up trying to prove the point with stats Now that you see their career averages side by side. Fine, so forget the calculator, and put wade on any of those championship laker teams that Kobe was on, you probably still end up wih 5 titles. Hate to burst your bubble, but everyone outside LA knows this. Put anyone else on that 06 miami team, and and I'm pretty sure not Kobe, and not any of his peers, could have put miami on his back pulled miami out of that 0-2 deficit the way he did.

And once agin, I'm not even trying to say wade is better all time than Kobe. But you do realize that everyone ourside of LA has known wade has been on Kobe's level for more than half a decade? Laughing at the comparison doesn't get you anywhere.
Last edited by ccameron on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ccameron

 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Doc Brown on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:24 pm

Dallas had a +3 free throw advantage in the first two games (won both) - 54 to 51 free throws for each team

Miami had a +55 free throw advantage in the last four games (won all four) - 156 to 101 free throws for each team.

Dwayne Wade shot 73 free throws in the last 4 games of the series. (18,9,25 and 21 respectively) and 97 for the entire series.

He went to the line 16 times per game for the series.

LOL at Wade not getting any help from the refs that series.
Rule of Thumb at ClubLakers - Never encourage people to check your post history.
User avatar
Doc Brown

 
Posts: 19446
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:11 am
Location: Ohio

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:42 pm

Doc Brown wrote:Dallas had a +3 free throw advantage in the first two games (won both) - 54 to 51 free throws for each team

Miami had a +55 free throw advantage in the last four games (won all four) - 156 to 101 free throws for each team.

Dwayne Wade shot 73 free throws in the last 4 games of the series. (18,9,25 and 21 respectively) and 97 for the entire series.

He went to the line 16 times per game for the series.

LOL at Wade not getting any help from the refs that series.


Did you watch the video? I suggest you watch it. Hardly anyone takes the time to review those games, but some people did, and you should see it.

Enough with the conspiracy theories. Difference in free throws doesn't mean anything if you don't know why it happened. Wade got to the line so much because he decided to attack the basket relentlessly. Also the Mavs played he dumb strategy of constantly fouling shaq, putting them in the penalty almost every quarter. Guess what that results in? More free throws for wade. The Mavs were taking open jump shots, good shots, but missing them late in games. They aren't going to go to the line vey often like that.

Another thing people forget (and this is in the video linked in my earlier post), the more you attack the rim, the more the refs will be involved, which means the more refs have the opportunity to get it wrong both ways. Everyone remembers the couple bad calls in wades favor -- no one remembers the no-calls where wade should have gotten The call but didn't. It went both ways.

Since I know most of you won't watch he video, I'll summarize. A coach analyzes the entire game 6, and concluded that of the 5 calls that people complain about in that game, only 2 of them were actually bad calls. Two in a game is not much. And the best part-- he found two instances where wade was practically knocked down and should have gotten the call, but didn't. But no one remembers those moments because there was no whistle calling attention to it. So it actually cancelled itself out. That was the most complained about game in the series, and it turns out the refs were a non factor. To say nothing of the other games in that series. All this makes sense and is logical, but people refuse to see it. Everyone just wants to quote the difference in free grows as if that meant something, without knowing why.
ccameron

 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby John3:16 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:50 pm

ccameron wrote:
John3:16 wrote:Where is Wade on the all time scoring list?

Where is Wade on the all time playoff scoring list?

Where is Kobe?

Game, Set, Stratosphere.


You keep Using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I'm not going to explain again why there is more to basketball than points per game. But since that is the only argument any if you actually seem to have based on facts, do you want to k ow how many more points Kobe averaged over his career than wade? 0.6. and that, ladies and gentleman, is where Kobe's advantage ends. pretty small stratosphere.


Answer the questions.
Image
User avatar
John3:16
CL Global Moderator
 
Posts: 31868
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 12:23 am
Location: Anywhere but LD after a loss.

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:07 pm

John3:16 wrote:
ccameron wrote:
John3:16 wrote:Where is Wade on the all time scoring list?

Where is Wade on the all time playoff scoring list?

Where is Kobe?

Game, Set, Stratosphere.


You keep Using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I'm not going to explain again why there is more to basketball than points per game. But since that is the only argument any if you actually seem to have based on facts, do you want to k ow how many more points Kobe averaged over his career than wade? 0.6. and that, ladies and gentleman, is where Kobe's advantage ends. pretty small stratosphere.


Answer the questions.


Ok you are going to make me look this up on my iPhone... Let's see Kobe seems to be 5th all time in scoring during regular season, and 3rd all time post season. Wade us not even top 25 on either of hese lists I'm looking at. Neither is lebron. Or anyone else that's been in the league as long as wade. Is this what you are trying to point out? Because that's kind of irrelevant considering how much longer Kobe has been playing and how much more postseason action he's seen. You want to see more relevant stats?

Kobe's average scoring in the postseason: 25.64 (10th all time)
Wade's average in he post season: 25.24 (13th all time).

And i already showed how there's not much difference in the regular season, either. This is Kobe's biggest advantage, and its not very big. Wade is never going to reach the same all time scoring numbers as Kobe simply because a) he started his NBA career much later than Kobe, and b) he isn't as muh of a pure scorer as Kobe anyway. But I really think you guys are running out of arguments. All I'm showing is that the comparison is justified. Can we just drop the stratosphere talk? You all are acting like I'm arguing wade will go down in history as better than Kobe.
ccameron

 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Weezy on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:42 pm

I hate when people bring up Kobe's career PPG, it's a misleading stat. Kobe came in out of high school to a team full of vets, he barely even played his first season, 15 mins per game he averaged 7 points. You take that year alone out and factor in his average this season so far and his career average is 28.36 PPG, just that one season. If you take out his first season AND this current season taking into account that we'll have no idea what he'll finish at you still get a career average of 26.38 PPG, still almost a point more than his career. And if you wanna go nuts and take out his first 2 seasons, because he only averaged 15 and 26 minutes per game then, and the rest of his career he has never averaged below 36 minutes per game again, still taking out this current season as well, his career average would be at 27.14 PPG. If he does keep end up with 30 PPG this season that would put him at 27.34.

So no matter how I slice it Kobe is always better than Wade, overall career, any single season, rings, finals appearances, MVP awards, Finals MVP's, NBA all team selection, defensive all team selections, meaningless all star game appearances or all star MVP, almost any way you want. Only thing he's done better in is fg%, which is not surprising as he attacked the basket more, but his 3pt % is terrible some seasons. I'd only be guessing but I'd say he's probably averged more free throws overall as well, but I could be wrong Kobe did have some years there where he actually got a lot of calls. Wade has never averaged less than 33 minutes per game in a season, he came in averaging 34 as a rookie on a team where he was allowed to be featured from day one. You can take all his stats any way you want and they won't equal or beat Kobe, take out his rookie year scoring average and leave in the current one if you want, still leaves him at 25.38. Kobe played next to a dominant Shaq, didn't hurt his scoring one bit, he was putting up 22, 28, and 30 in our biggest runs 2000-2004. But Wade is next to LeBron, a guy known for racking up assists as well as scoring and Wade gets the excuse of being next to a dominant scorer? Please. Wade isn't better in overall career, has never had one season better than Kobe's best, never has been, and never will be better than Kobe. Wade's in his 10th season and he's dipped big time in scoring, might even be falling off slowly, Kobe's in his 17th season and as good as ever. Sustaining greatness counts, you can't be better than someone if you've only done what they did for half as long at best. And I do put Kobe in a different stratosphere for his sustained greatness, better playoff runs, seasons of carrying teams pretty much alone and still getting them to the playoffs in a tough west while Wade couldn't always in a weak east, and a few other reasons as well. Kobe is a much more special player than Wade ever was. I realize that saying I know it's not all about PPG will probably hurt what I just said, but when it comes to 2 shooting guards, guys whose job it is to score mainly, it kinda, matters. Just my opinion of course.
User avatar
Weezy
CL Global Moderator
 
Posts: 50866
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:14 am
Location: Anaheim, CA

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:15 pm

Well I was going to come in here and defend the post, but I think you guys did a better job than I could have :man10:
Stu : "Yeah, that's an old fashioned whoopin'."
therealdeal
CL Global Moderator
 
Posts: 40322
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:03 pm

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Finwë on Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:14 am

ccameron wrote:Fine, forget PER, look at their career stats that go into PER. Please tell me where you get "other stratosphere" from:


Wade: 24.9 points per game on .487 shooting percentage on 8.8 of 18.1 shots, .770 free throw percentage, 5.0 rebounds, 6.1 assists, 1.0 blocks, 1.7 steals, 3.5 turnovers

Kobe: Career25.5 points per game, .454 percent shooting on 8.9-19.6 shots, .838 free throw percentage, 5.3 rebounds, 4.7 assists, 0.5 blocks, 1.5 steals, and 3.

Looks like the same stratosphere to me. And by the way, please name another superstar player that you feel is drastically mischaracterized by PER. If Kobe is the only one, then you might have to rethink your complete dismissal of it.

Yeah, because THAT'S what defines Kobe (and Wade). Basic box score stats. Give me a break.
Much of Kobe's greatness (unquestionably so) is intangible in terms of your every day box score. His clutchness, his preparation, his toughness, his ability to play through injury, his ability to adjust his game and stay productive through SEVENTEEN seasons and counting..
Wade is in his tenth season and already looks like he's clearly lost a couple of steps. His "much improved jumper" still isn't close to Kobe's. His post-game the same, not close. He plays on a MUCH deeper team, surrounded by much better shooters (floor spacers), the load he's asked to carry is much smalller, yet he's being outplayed (not just statistically) by a dude who is supposed to be way past his prime.
Kobe's played thousands and thousands more minutes than Wade, yet if you take the game against the Clippers, he was asked to be the main scorer AND guard the opposing team's best player. Wade isn't asked to do that NOW, and he's much younger and with much less mileage than Kobe (Kobe scored 38 that game btw).

Don't get me wrong, Wade is an insanely gifted player. But he's not close to Kobe, and I doubt you'll find many people without bias to dispute that. It's not just about stats, it's also about intangibles, accolades & success, and longevity (prolongued greatness).

Oh, and I don't find PER to be all that you've made it to be in your previous posts. It's a nice stat, but in no way determines "X is better than Y".
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
User avatar
Finwë

 
Posts: 8078
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:32 pm

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Finwë on Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:18 am

ccameron wrote:
And once agin, I'm not even trying to say wade is better all time than Kobe. But you do realize that everyone ourside of LA has known wade has been on Kobe's level for more than half a decade? Laughing at the comparison doesn't get you anywhere.

Actually, no, that is incorrect. I'd say 90% of all noted basketball analysts/reporters/people that get paid to watch and talk about basketball/other players/coaches etc have always considered Kobe to be the top SG in the league except for one season. But whatever, believe what you want to believe.
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
User avatar
Finwë

 
Posts: 8078
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:32 pm

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Congo Cash on Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:58 am

abeer3 wrote:lol at a heat fan denying that the refs handed them the 06 finals. what a joke.

wade's never been on kobe's level, and he won't get there as lebron's cabana boy.
- insert signature here -
User avatar
Congo Cash

 
Posts: 4532
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:58 am
Location: Philippines

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby nameant on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:56 am

When you're strongest argument for Wade being on Kobe's level is stats, PER at that, you're reaching. Nobody is denying Wade was/is a great player...he's just not on Kobe's level, now or ever.
User avatar
nameant

 
Posts: 25328
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:30 pm

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby John3:16 on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:04 am

Weezy wrote:I hate when people bring up Kobe's career PPG, it's a misleading stat.


Didn't wanna quote your entire post, but I completely agree. Was something I planned to touch on, but didn't. Stats are only part of the equation.

Another thing: Kobe got a team of starters that consisted of Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Lamar Odom, and Kwame Brown to the playoffs. In the West. Think about that for awhile.
Image
User avatar
John3:16
CL Global Moderator
 
Posts: 31868
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 12:23 am
Location: Anywhere but LD after a loss.

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:52 am

Finwë wrote:
ccameron wrote:Fine, forget PER, look at their career stats that go into PER. Please tell me where you get "other stratosphere" from:


Wade: 24.9 points per game on .487 shooting percentage on 8.8 of 18.1 shots, .770 free throw percentage, 5.0 rebounds, 6.1 assists, 1.0 blocks, 1.7 steals, 3.5 turnovers

Kobe: Career25.5 points per game, .454 percent shooting on 8.9-19.6 shots, .838 free throw percentage, 5.3 rebounds, 4.7 assists, 0.5 blocks, 1.5 steals, and 3.

Looks like the same stratosphere to me. And by the way, please name another superstar player that you feel is drastically mischaracterized by PER. If Kobe is the only one, then you might have to rethink your complete dismissal of it.

Yeah, because THAT'S what defines Kobe (and Wade). Basic box score stats. Give me a break.
Much of Kobe's greatness (unquestionably so) is intangible in terms of your every day box score. His clutchness, his preparation, his toughness, his ability to play through injury, his ability to adjust his game and stay productive through SEVENTEEN seasons and counting..
Wade is in his tenth season and already looks like he's clearly lost a couple of steps. His "much improved jumper" still isn't close to Kobe's. His post-game the same, not close. He plays on a MUCH deeper team, surrounded by much better shooters (floor spacers), the load he's asked to carry is much smalller, yet he's being outplayed (not just statistically) by a dude who is supposed to be way past his prime.
Kobe's played thousands and thousands more minutes than Wade, yet if you take the game against the Clippers, he was asked to be the main scorer AND guard the opposing team's best player. Wade isn't asked to do that NOW, and he's much younger and with much less mileage than Kobe (Kobe scored 38 that game btw).

Don't get me wrong, Wade is an insanely gifted player. But he's not close to Kobe, and I doubt you'll find many people without bias to dispute that. It's not just about stats, it's also about intangibles, accolades & success, and longevity (prolongued greatness).

Oh, and I don't find PER to be all that you've made it to be in your previous posts. It's a nice stat, but in no way determines "X is better than Y".


Ok, so PER is irrelevant, career stats are irrelevant, but you all want to talk about career number of points! Really? How is that relevant? Ray Allen has more career total points than Lebron, Wade, and Magic Johnson!You all hate PER obviously, but it's a much better indicator than career number of points!Look at the all time rank of career number of points, and look at the all time rank of career PER players -- you tell me which one is a more accurate list of best players! Adjusting, of course, for the fact that some players still in their primes will go down on the PER list.

So you can't argue numbers, so you want to talk about Kobe being clutch. And Wade is not clutch? I can argue from a subjective standpoint all I want, but that will never convince you. Wade has been incredibly clutch as well. I don't think you've been watching him day in and day out like us in Miami. I don't know how you can continue to dismiss his '06 finals performance, but then look his whole playoff run that year, too -- was that whole thing a fluke? Did the refs gift him Detroit, Chicago, and New Jersey? Wade entire playoff run is ranked as one of the top all-time:

http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamihe ... ayoff-runs

So dismiss the '06 finals all you want, it was no fluke like you make it out to be. And he continued to play at that level, except for the year he had surgery. He improved, in fact, and had regular seasons with better stats than those playoff stats. And he continued to produce playoff performances just like that his whole career.

But let's just agree that Kobe is the king of clutch. What then? Does that mean he is in another stratosphere? Everyone outside of LA acknolwedges Wade has been at his level for a while. Here's an article for you:

http://joshweil.blogspot.com/2012/09/kobe-v-wade.html

http://joshweil.blogspot.com/2012/10/ko ... rt-ii.html

Wade has had a higher peak in his shorter career. The guy who argues Kobe is the better shooting guard acknowledges Wade has peaked higher than Kobe in terms of production. But Kobe has had the longevity. In my opinion, Wade has been better for the second half of his career. But I'm not trying to convince you of this. It would be foolish to expect anyone in Lakerland to concede this. And I'll admit most people have put Kobe ahead of Wade even in the later part of his career. I think they are wrong for a number of reasons. But most of you are refusing to even acknowledge that it was ever even a debate that Wade has been a better player or that he was in the same league. I don't think outside of LA do people have such an unrealistic view about this.

And ability to play through injury? You think Wade hasn't played through injury? What about the Pacers series last year? After coming off an 8 point game when he got his knee drained THAT DAY, and then coming back for 30, 28, and then 41 points for the rest of the series despite his knee problems? I think Bryant had his knee drained for a playoff series, too but it wasn't that dramatic. But I know this isn't going to convince anyone, that's why I can't argue subjective things like this.

You all want to argue Kobe transends his stats. And Wade doesn't? You point out Lebron is on Wade's team as if that were supposed to help Wade's stats? And Kobe having better stats this season DESPITE playing on a worse team and having to carry a bigger load? Have you ever played basketball? It works the opposite. I've been teams where good players can hardly get a shot off because there are so many other good players. On the other hand, I've been on bad teams where I look good in comparison. So I applaud you for looking behind the stats, but you're looking the wrong way.

weezy wrote:I hate when people bring up Kobe's career PPG, it's a misleading stat. Kobe came in out of high school to a team full of vets, he barely even played his first season, 15 mins per game he averaged 7 points. You take that year alone out and factor in his average this season so far and his career average is 28.36 PPG, just that one season. If you take out his first season AND this current season taking into account that we'll have no idea what he'll finish at you still get a career average of 26.38 PPG, still almost a point more than his career. And if you wanna go nuts and take out his first 2 seasons, because he only averaged 15 and 26 minutes per game then, and the rest of his career he has never averaged below 36 minutes per game again, still taking out this current season as well, his career average would be at 27.14 PPG. If he does keep end up with 30 PPG this season that would put him at 27.34.

So no matter how I slice it Kobe is always better than Wade, overall career, any single season, rings, finals appearances, MVP awards, Finals MVP's, NBA all team selection, defensive all team selections, meaningless all star game appearances or all star MVP, almost any way you want. Only thing he's done better in is fg%, which is not surprising as he attacked the basket more, but his 3pt % is terrible some seasons. I'd only be guessing but I'd say he's probably averged more free throws overall as well, but I could be wrong Kobe did have some years there where he actually got a lot of calls. Wade has never averaged less than 33 minutes per game in a season, he came in averaging 34 as a rookie on a team where he was allowed to be featured from day one. You can take all his stats any way you want and they won't equal or beat Kobe, take out his rookie year scoring average and leave in the current one if you want, still leaves him at 25.38. Kobe played next to a dominant Shaq, didn't hurt his scoring one bit, he was putting up 22, 28, and 30 in our biggest runs 2000-2004. But Wade is next to LeBron, a guy known for racking up assists as well as scoring and Wade gets the excuse of being next to a dominant scorer? Please. Wade isn't better in overall career, has never had one season better than Kobe's best, never has been, and never will be better than Kobe. Wade's in his 10th season and he's dipped big time in scoring, might even be falling off slowly, Kobe's in his 17th season and as good as ever. Sustaining greatness counts, you can't be better than someone if you've only done what they did for half as long at best. And I do put Kobe in a different stratosphere for his sustained greatness, better playoff runs, seasons of carrying teams pretty much alone and still getting them to the playoffs in a tough west while Wade couldn't always in a weak east, and a few other reasons as well. Kobe is a much more special player than Wade ever was. I realize that saying I know it's not all about PPG will probably hurt what I just said, but when it comes to 2 shooting guards, guys whose job it is to score mainly, it kinda, matters. Just my opinion of course.


I applaud you for actually looking past the numbers. You have to, because their stats are very similar. And as I showed in directly above this (and most people agree, you have to accept this), Wade had the higher peak in terms of production. But Kobe definitely has the longevity. Nevertheless, I think everyone has jumped too early about Wade declining rapidly. He is recovering from knee surgery, people. And all year last year, he was dealing with knee problems (which he did not reveal until after the finals -- so yes, Wade also plays throuigh injury). I think he is going to have more longevity than people think. He's already developed other aspects of his game and shown he can adapt, and he is getting better this season every week.

Better playoff runs is actually not true. Again, he had more playoff runs, not better. Wade's playoff run in '06 is considered one of the greatest ever. You all want to dismiss his '06 finals performance, but people have not, as yet, dismissed his entire playoff run, because that's not possible. ESPN ranked it tenth all time (and Kobe was not on that list, BTW). Again, not even saying Wade has had better playoffs, and you don't even have to agree with ESPN, but his playoff averages are almost identical. And that's not just '06 -- that's his whole career. I think that says something, if you want to talk about clutch.

When you actually look past the stats, especially this season, what you see is Kobe's stats are a bit inflated, because he takes so many shots and his team is not very good. Wade is recovering from surgery, playing fewer minutes, and is averaging 15 shot attempts per game on this team. There is just no way in the world Wade would be taking over 22 shots a game on the heat this season, like Kobe does on the Lakers. The fact that you don't take that into consideration means you are not even reading the stats the right way. His minutes are increasing, and he's been taking more shots lately, but he will never be averaging 22 shots a game on this team. So once again, I applaud you for looking past the stats, but you are not seeing everything.

Basic point: if you have to split hairs about stats, if you have to argue that Kobe is better than his stats (and none of you have even acknowledged that Wade is better than his stats, which he is -- particularly this season), that means they are NOT in different stratospheres. A different stratosphere needs no explanation, and does not require hair splitting. I'm not even challenging that Kobe will go down significantly higher on the list than Wade all time, but you all are deluding yourself into thinking there is such a gulf between Wade and Kobe. Sorry, but there isn't.
Last edited by ccameron on Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
ccameron

 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:33 am

By the way, Finwë, I like your username. I see you've read the Silmarillion. Always good to find a real Tolkien fan. :bow:
ccameron

 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Weezy on Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:43 am

I just said what I wanted to say, we don't have to agree, and as a Laker fan and Heat fan we probably never will, and that's fine. You make a lot of good points, but we just disagree overall. Like Wade being on ESPN's all time playoff performance list, ESPN is a joke, they don't like Kobe and they love Wade and LeBron. Kobe's 2001 playoff performance was ridiculous, better than any run I've seen Wade have, and his 2000, 2002, 2009 and 2010 runs were amazing as well just to name a few, he pretty much always steps it up even more for the playoffs.
User avatar
Weezy
CL Global Moderator
 
Posts: 50866
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:14 am
Location: Anaheim, CA

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:55 am

Weezy wrote:I just said what I wanted to say, we don't have to agree, and as a Laker fan and Heat fan we probably never will, and that's fine. You make a lot of good points, but we just disagree overall. Like Wade being on ESPN's all time playoff performance list, ESPN is a joke, they don't like Kobe and they love Wade and LeBron. Kobe's 2001 playoff performance was ridiculous, better than any run I've seen Wade have, and his 2000, 2002, 2009 and 2010 runs were amazing as well just to name a few, he pretty much always steps it up even more for the playoffs.



Look, I'll say this about Kobe this year: even though I said his numbers this season are offset and a little inflated by the fact that he is taking so many shots and playing so many minutes, I don't want to push that argument too much because in my opinion that's the most impressive thing about him at his age. It's not easy to log that many minutes and take that many shots. And that is why he will, in my opinion, always have the edge on Wade all time. no matter what Wade does here on out, it's going to be near impossible for him to stay as productive for as long as Kobe. I think, though, that that people are overreacting to his knee surgery now and that he will continue to be very productive for a long while.

I don't think that espn list is a joke, but at the end of the day though, you are right, I don't want you to necessarily agree with me. I'm sure Kobe is on other lists of greatest playoff performances. I think they are both awesome players, and for the record, Kobe will be top ten.
ccameron

 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Iceberg Slim on Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:59 am

Wade has been a sensational player since he graced the league in 2003. A perennial all-star, two-time gold medalist, clutch performer, all-world defender, who holds a multi-faceted skill set rivaled by only the best players in the game. His PER are numbers have been some of the most impressive since he's entered the NBA.

But in comparison to Kobe Bryant, despite better PER numbers, he has NEVER been considered the best player in the world. From 2003 to 2009, Kobe Bryant was just that. His 81 points speaks to that. His 50+point 4 games in a row, speak to that. His 30K in points (1 of only 5 EVER), speak to that. His two Finals MVP's, late game heroics, back-to-back rings, and leadership for the Lakers (despite some serious injuries over the last 5 years) speak to that. No one has been tougher (mentally/physically) and more accomplished than him since the great Jordan.

So when the stratosphere argument is on the table, it holds small weight when looking at all the dynamics presented for both men. Dwyane Wade has been a superstar of the highest order. There is no denying such notion. Kobe Bryant? He's simply become this generation's Michael Jordan. And that notion, puts these men on separate planets.

P.S. Welcome to the site, ccameron.
www.thesportslyceum.com - personal blog

Image
User avatar
Iceberg Slim

 
Posts: 4960
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:38 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby 432J on Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:07 am

wade's always been in the top 3-5 of NBA players but he's never been as good as kobe, lebron, or durant

he's no doubt one of the best players of this generation and a future HOF'er but when it's all said and done he'll be a top 25 all time player at best
Image
User avatar
432J

 
Posts: 4782
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Sherbrooke, Quebec

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby therealdeal on Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:20 am

ccameron wrote:By the way, Finwë, I like your username. I see you've read the Silmarillion. Always good to find a real Tolkien fan. :bow:

Hey props to you for sticking to your guns. I hope you stick around here, we always need more analytic thinkers on this site. Even if we don't agree on the tools you use. :man10:

If you really love Tolkein, we're having a nice talk about the Hobbit in the "Media Circuit" Forum. We go into pretty awesome depth about the books and movies. Feel free to join in the conversation.
Stu : "Yeah, that's an old fashioned whoopin'."
therealdeal
CL Global Moderator
 
Posts: 40322
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:03 pm

PreviousNext

Return to NBA Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 10 guests

cron
Advertise Here | Privacy Policy | ©2008 Sculu Sports. Come Strong.