The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:27 pm

Iceberg Slim wrote:Wade has been a sensational player since he graced the league in 2003. A perennial all-star, two-time gold medalist, clutch performer, all-world defender, who holds a multi-faceted skill set rivaled by only the best players in the game. His PER are numbers have been some of the most impressive since he's entered the NBA.

But in comparison to Kobe Bryant, despite better PER numbers, he has NEVER been considered the best player in the world. From 2003 to 2009, Kobe Bryant was just that. His 81 points speaks to that. His 50+point 4 games in a row, speak to that. His 30K in points (1 of only 5 EVER), speak to that. His two Finals MVP's, late game heroics, back-to-back rings, and leadership for the Lakers (despite some serious injuries over the last 5 years) speak to that. No one has been tougher (mentally/physically) and more accomplished than him since the great Jordan.

So when the stratosphere argument is on the table, it holds small weight when looking at all the dynamics presented for both men. Dwyane Wade has been a superstar of the highest order. There is no denying such notion. Kobe Bryant? He's simply become this generation's Michael Jordan. And that notion, puts these men on separate planets.

P.S. Welcome to the site, ccameron.



Well, we can't agree on the different planet, stratosphere stuff. Kobe is one of the all time greats. There is no question he has been considered the greatest of his time -- but all I'm saying is during the last five years, it has been a combination of titles and the benefit of past reputation that have made it so -- not necessarily because his individual play was better than Wade's. If all you mean by stratosphere is the reputation and aura that Kobe developed over his career, he definitely does have that aura.

Thanks for the welcome, and you're original article I didn't have much of a problem with. Except that he didn't win a gold medal this year -- he was having knee surgery, not playing in the Olympics.
Last edited by ccameron on Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:31 pm

432J wrote:wade's always been in the top 3-5 of NBA players but he's never been as good as kobe, lebron, or durant

he's no doubt one of the best players of this generation and a future HOF'er but when it's all said and done he'll be a top 25 all time player at best


Durant has not yet reached the peaks that Wade has. He has the potential to, and considering how young he is, I expect he will. But as of right now, that statement is not true.

And Wade was basically neck and neck with Lebron for the first 8 years of their career. It was only last season that Lebron began to pull ahead.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:40 pm

therealdeal wrote:
ccameron wrote:By the way, Finwë, I like your username. I see you've read the Silmarillion. Always good to find a real Tolkien fan. :bow:

Hey props to you for sticking to your guns. I hope you stick around here, we always need more analytic thinkers on this site. Even if we don't agree on the tools you use. :man10:

If you really love Tolkein, we're having a nice talk about the Hobbit in the "Media Circuit" Forum. We go into pretty awesome depth about the books and movies. Feel free to join in the conversation.


Sounds cool, will check that out!
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Chillbongo on Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:55 pm

In no particular order:

1.Jordan
2.Kobe
3.Wilt
4.Kareem
5.Russel
6.Magic
7. Shaq
8.Isiah
9.Havlicek
10.Oscar
11.Worthy
12.West
13.Mikan
14.Stockton
15.Malone
16.Barkley
17.Payton
18.Hakeem
19.Baylor
20.LeBron
21.Duncan
22.Bird
23.Cousy
24.Drexler
25.Moses Malone


Dwayne Wade does not crack that list.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Juronimo on Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:39 pm

Damn, Kareem's so good he's on your list twice.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Armani on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:11 pm

ccameron wrote:

Well, we can't agree on the different planet, stratosphere stuff. Kobe is one of the all time greats. There is no question he has been considered the greatest of his time -- but all I'm saying is during the last five years, it has been a combination of titles and the benefit of past reputation that have made it so -- not necessarily because his individual play was better than Wade's. If all you mean by stratosphere is the reputation and aura that Kobe developed over his career, he definitely does have that aura.

Thanks for the welcome, and you're original article I didn't have much of a problem with. Except that he didn't win a gold medal this year -- he was having knee surgery, not playing in the Olympics.


Well, just look at it this way... you say Kobe at his best is basically = to Wade at his best. You list some numbers in his favor. Fine. How many great years as he had?

06: Kobe level, sure.
07: Down Year. Injury riddled.
08: Another down year. Not even close to himself.
09-11: All great years. Kobe level, sure.
12: Really inconsistent with injury issues, not really considered a superstar, though he did come up big at times.
13: I am just looking at what he's doing, and he seems to already be in that veteran phase of his career... where you're at reduced minutes and saving your best for the playoffs.

So he's had 4 Kobe level superstar years, arguably 5. Kobe broke into superstardom in 2001 ( and had a couple all star type years before that), and he's just never looked back. Outside of 2005, which was an injury riddled year... he's been a superstar pretty consistently. 2001-2013. He's averaging almost 40 minutes a game in 2013, and trying to carry a team into the playoffs, like a prime superstar.

Do you honestly think Wade will have that type of longevity in his career? I am looking at 11 franchise carrying superstar impact right here, while Wade has 5, and only slowing down. If you say Wade at his best was comparable to Kobe at his best, fine. He won't have the career durability/longevity of Kobe or be remembered in that way, though. Their careers will be a good number apart on any reasonable all time list.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby revgen on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:22 pm

Juronimo wrote:Damn, Kareem's so good he's on your list twice.


That's Hakeem.
"Every time he’s hurt, he always plays, he always comes through."

- Metta World Peace on teammate Kobe Bryant
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Chillbongo on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:28 pm

I edited.....he was right :man1:
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Juronimo on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:39 pm

Chillbongo wrote:I edited.....he was right :man1:


Well, Kareem was that good.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby John3:16 on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:08 pm

Juronimo wrote:
Chillbongo wrote:I edited.....he was right :man1:


Well, Kareem was that good.


LISTEN KID! I've been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I'm out there busting my buns every night. Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby 432J on Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:15 pm

Chillbongo wrote:In no particular order:

1.Jordan
2.Kobe
3.Wilt
4.Kareem
5.Russel
6.Magic
7. Shaq
8.Isiah
9.Havlicek
10.Oscar
11.Worthy
12.West
13.Mikan
14.Stockton
15.Malone
16.Barkley
17.Payton
18.Hakeem
19.Baylor
20.LeBron
21.Duncan
22.Bird
23.Cousy
24.Drexler
25.Moses Malone


Dwayne Wade does not crack that list.

i stopped reading your list when you put isiah at 8 and tim duncan at 21

should be the other way around and wade does indeed crack that list
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby John3:16 on Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:18 pm

^^^ he said no particular order.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby 432J on Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:22 pm

John3:16 wrote:^^^ he said no particular order.

oh

well in that case, i'd say replace either cousy or drexler with wade
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Finwë on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:40 am

Yeah but what about Pippen? Ewing? Robinson? Dr J? Hayes?
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby 432J on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:38 am

Finwë wrote:Yeah but what about Pippen? Ewing? Robinson? Dr J? Hayes?

yeah that list is definitely lacking some big names

i really think isiah thomas is one of the most overrated players of all time. i would never include him on any top 25 list
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Scnottaken on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:44 am

I believe It was Finwe that said in another thread that the difference in 45 to 50% shooting was 1 shot @ 20 FGA per game. . . Considering Kobe's late game (and late shot clock) heroics, and the fact that Wade has gotten more favorable calls over the years (thus erasing 1 shot attempt and resulting in an easier 2 pts) I think we can say that FGA may be slightly skewed in Wade's favor.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby John3:16 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:26 pm

432J wrote:
Finwë wrote:Yeah but what about Pippen? Ewing? Robinson? Dr J? Hayes?

yeah that list is definitely lacking some big names

i really think isiah thomas is one of the most overrated players of all time. i would never include him on any top 25 list


Him and AI are the toughest little guys in NBA history. Thomas is far from overrated. Horrible front office guy, but a truly GREAT player in his day.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Finwë on Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:59 am

Scnottaken wrote:I believe It was Finwe that said in another thread that the difference in 45 to 50% shooting was 1 shot @ 20 FGA per game. . . Considering Kobe's late game (and late shot clock) heroics, and the fact that Wade has gotten more favorable calls over the years (thus erasing 1 shot attempt and resulting in an easier 2 pts) I think we can say that FGA may be slightly skewed in Wade's favor.

Yeah I said that. 10/20 is 50%, 9/20 is 45%.
Also, you need to consider that Wade has always taken more shots in the paint than Kobe, which are obviously converted at a higher clip than jumpers. Part of that is because Kobe's always played with bigs who like to post up and clog the lanes, while Wade only had Shaq be that guy, and that was for a short amount of time. Nowadays the paint couldn't be more open for Heat players, with a lineup full of shooters and the only "big" being Bosh who actually loves to play pick and roll and take jumpers. LeBron and Wade have the lanes extremely open to go to work. Kobe, not so much.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:31 am

Armani wrote:
ccameron wrote:

Well, we can't agree on the different planet, stratosphere stuff. Kobe is one of the all time greats. There is no question he has been considered the greatest of his time -- but all I'm saying is during the last five years, it has been a combination of titles and the benefit of past reputation that have made it so -- not necessarily because his individual play was better than Wade's. If all you mean by stratosphere is the reputation and aura that Kobe developed over his career, he definitely does have that aura.

Thanks for the welcome, and you're original article I didn't have much of a problem with. Except that he didn't win a gold medal this year -- he was having knee surgery, not playing in the Olympics.


Well, just look at it this way... you say Kobe at his best is basically = to Wade at his best. You list some numbers in his favor. Fine. How many great years as he had?

06: Kobe level, sure.
07: Down Year. Injury riddled.
08: Another down year. Not even close to himself.
09-11: All great years. Kobe level, sure.
12: Really inconsistent with injury issues, not really considered a superstar, though he did come up big at times.
13: I am just looking at what he's doing, and he seems to already be in that veteran phase of his career... where you're at reduced minutes and saving your best for the playoffs.

So he's had 4 Kobe level superstar years, arguably 5. Kobe broke into superstardom in 2001 ( and had a couple all star type years before that), and he's just never looked back. Outside of 2005, which was an injury riddled year... he's been a superstar pretty consistently. 2001-2013. He's averaging almost 40 minutes a game in 2013, and trying to carry a team into the playoffs, like a prime superstar.

Do you honestly think Wade will have that type of longevity in his career? I am looking at 11 franchise carrying superstar impact right here, while Wade has 5, and only slowing down. If you say Wade at his best was comparable to Kobe at his best, fine. He won't have the career durability/longevity of Kobe or be remembered in that way, though. Their careers will be a good number apart on any reasonable all time list.


Kobe has the longevity, sure. But again, I think everyone is overreacting to Wade's poor play from the first month coming off surgery. Before the season started, Wade and everyone on the team had been saying (and they have continued to say), that it would be a long term recovery, and that he would be improving as the season goes on. And that's exactly what's been happening -- he's been playing very well recently -- despite limited minutes -- and getting better. His first month back he was shooting 46.6 % -- now he's brought his average up to 51% (for the past month and a half he's been shooting over 53%). He was averaging .4 blocks a game a month ago -- that's up to .71 now. I don't know how far up his points per game will go (he aveaged 18.1 in his first month, now he's at 20.4), but if you've been watching the Heat games, you would notice a couple things: First, when the Heat are playing well, the shots are pretty evenly distributed throughout the team, and 2) and when Wade is taking more shots and shooting well, they blow out the other teams, and he often sits out the entire fourth quarter. That was the trend last season, and it seems to be the trend this season. It's going to be hard for him to average more points in that situation.

By the way, I disagree about last season. It is true Wade had injuries all season (some we knew about, others, like the knee problem, he didn't talk about until after the postseason). But he was extremely efficient -- not just in field goal percentage,but in all areas, particularly defensively. If you think Kobe played better last season just because he averaged more points, I would say a closer look shows otherwise. Wade was underrated, even with his injuries. The people who only look at points per game and conclude he is not a "star" because he only averaged 22.2 points per game are looking very superficially at stats. It looks like this year will be similar -- there is no way on this team that he will average his career points per game (I would be very surprised if he does), but he will have another very efficient season.

No doubt about it it's impressive that Kobe is averaging that many minutes and carrying a team at his age. I don't want to take anything away from that. But again, just pointing out he is doing that because he has to. He's in a different situation. The Lakers have been a wreck so far, and Kobe is trying to fill the void. Put Wade in that position, so that he can put up as many shots as he likes, and he would be doing the same thing. I expect the Lakers to get better -- Dwight is also recovering from surgery, and when Nash is fully healthy, they will gel better. Also, FWIW, Kobe is playing miles better this year than last year. This is a situation where if you just looked at points per game, you would think they are having similar seasons, but they are not -- he is being a lot more efficient, which is impressive.

No, I do not "honestly" think Wade will have Kobe's longevity. I never made that claim. What I am saying is he's played at Kobe's level for most of his career, and in fact has peaked higher. Perhaps those peaks have cost him some longevity. But I think he'll last longer than people are thinking right now. It's unrealistic that people expect him to only get worse, when he's actually recovering from surgery and getting better.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:52 am

432J wrote:
Finwë wrote:Yeah but what about Pippen? Ewing? Robinson? Dr J? Hayes?

yeah that list is definitely lacking some big names

i really think isiah thomas is one of the most overrated players of all time. i would never include him on any top 25 list


That wasn't my list of "top 25 players of all time". I quickly listed 25 players that are better than D Wade.

You're right though, Pippen, Ewing & Dr. J would probably be on such a list, so Flash wouldn't even be in the top 30. He's a great player, just not an NBA great.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Iceberg Slim on Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:05 am

I just bought League Pass for the first time and watched Miami try to stage a 23 point comeback against Utah last night. They almost pulled it off. I noticed Wade wasn't involved at all. Looks like he took the seat of the guy who he got thrown out in the front row.


Edit: Just watched sportscenter. Spolestra decides to bench BOTH Bosh and Wade for the 4th? Interesting.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Weezy on Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:32 am

There are also two sides of a basketball court. Kobe, 9 time all defensive first team selections, 3 time all defensive second team selections. Wade, 3 time all defensive second team selections.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:09 am

Iceberg Slim wrote:I just bought League Pass for the first time and watched Miami try to stage a 23 point comeback against Utah last night. They almost pulled it off. I noticed Wade wasn't involved at all. Looks like he took the seat of the guy who he got thrown out in the front row.


Edit: Just watched sportscenter. Spolestra decides to bench BOTH Bosh and Wade for the 4th? Interesting.


Not a great game for Wade, sure -- but don't act like Kobe's never been benched before. They were down by 20 points in the fourth, so it looked like it would be a blowout loss, so Spoelstra sat Wade, and then the bench went on an improbable run, and Spoelstra decided to run with it. Not much take away from one odd night.

And as an example of why Wade's stats underrate him as a player, look at last night's game, which was not an odd night, but rather common -- Wade didn't play the fourth quarter at all because it was a blowout win, but 15 points on 6 of 12 shooting, 8 rebounds, 6 assists, 5 steals, 1 block, no turnovers. If this were Chris Paul, that would be an excellent game in 4 quarters, but Wade isn't given credit for such efficient play in just 3 quarters. And if Lebron wasn't on Wade's team, Wade would be taking more shots in those three quarters, and would likely have to be playing in the fourth quarter as well, getting a ton more points -- but that's not his situation, and no one takes that into account. And this is not an odd game -- I can't keep track of how many games like this he's had this season (and last season). And that is why he is probably the most underrated superstar right now.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:28 am

Weezy wrote:There are also two sides of a basketball court. Kobe, 9 time all defensive first team selections, 3 time all defensive second team selections. Wade, 3 time all defensive second team selections.


I don't know if you want to go there. Most people realize that Kobe was not necessarily deserving of a lot of those first team selections (some of them yes, definitely not all of them), and many have said Wade was more deserving and should have gotten first team a number of times. Not going to go into defensive stats because even though they are better nobody will care, but Wade can lock down his man. Late in close games they don't always put Lebron on the opposing team's best player, they often put Wade on him, too. This is another example where Kobe was just getting more recognition based on reputation and aura, not necessarily because he was the better defender. Which has been my point all along. Not that Wade is or was better than Kobe, but that most of the perceived difference is not to do with individual play.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Iceberg Slim on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:10 am

Pardon me as I yawn just a bit ccameron.

You know what Dwyane Wade is? A 2003 400 horsepower Maserati with 300,000 miles on it. It's still fast, it still looks good, but it's run down, needs an oil change and new wheels. Without Lebron, Wade would have to shoulder Kobe Bryant-like minutes. We both know he couldn't take that. Bron is carrying him. Let's stop with the underrated talk. His position is warranted. He's a super efficient, multi-faceted, athletic freak...who gets hurt all the time. His high's are awesome. His lows are absymal.

P.S. This most underrated superstar in the league (in this season) is Deron Williams.
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