The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Iceberg Slim on Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:36 pm

Fresh off a championship run, a gold medal, and a new multi-million dollar sneaker deal with Chinese sportswear company Li-Ning, things are looking up these days for Dwyane Wade. What’s not is his rather pedestrian NBA stat-line this year. 20.8 ppg (second lowest of his career) along with 4.6 rebounds, and 4.3 assists are good numbers…if you’re Joe Johnson. For a superstar like D-Wade? It raises some eyebrows. It has NBA fans questioning, how long is his timetable? For this writer, it makes me ask, “Does it even matter?” Why is that? The perfect storm is brewing off the gulf in Miami, Florida. Dwayne sits in the eye of it all.

Like the aged Tim Duncan of the San Antonio Spurs, the Miami Heat have found ways to keep their young star atop the throne where they feel he belongs. Adding shooters like Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis has helped alleviate offensive strains on the body of Wade, who has seemed to age much faster than his classmates Lebron James and Carmelo Anthony, both of whom are front runners for the MVP. The devil is in the details of Wade 33 games in - 37% from the long-range, up from his abysmal career average 29%. More importantly, 13-35 from that mark. Last year, he completed a total 15 threes on 56 attempts. He’s on pace to triple those numbers. Amongst the criticism, he’s still shooting 51% from the field, highest of his career so far. It’s quite apparent the gospels were true about Wade. Pummeling through lanes for And 1’s, getting 15 free throws per game (still ranks #11 in the league at total attempts), and crashing the boards as if he was, well…Lebron James, might take its toll. He’s clearly listened to his body. Of all the teams in the NBA, OKC and Miami hold the biggest windows of opportunity to stack championships like the Lakers and Bulls did over the last two decades. Keeping Wade upright and efficient will be one of the driving factors for a title run. With Lebron as the engine, the hum of this high powered sports car never sounded better…if and only if Chicago’s son runs at optimal level.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Finwë on Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:58 pm

Good writeup Iceberg Slim. I agree with your points.
I know the post is about Wade, but I feel Bosh has also been key in Miami's success this season and will be as the season progresses. He seems to be back to being, well, Chris Bosh. He still has some off games but for the most part he's been very good. His P&R - P&P game with LeBron and Wade is deadly. He's clutch, and they can go to him on the block or as a shooter and know they are probably gonna get something out of it.
I would say I really FEAR Miami, but since my Lakers aren't really going anywhere, then it wouldn't make much sense.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Nikez on Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:33 pm

I have never really felt wade was a premier superstar in this league, not like kobe or lebron. Since he IS playing with another superstart and a number of solid players his numbers look like they should be right where they are at.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby therealdeal on Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:20 pm

His body really is breaking down in front of us. We read all of the reports this summer about working on his jump shot and taking more of those instead of worrying about going into the paint like he's used to. The guy simply cannot take a beating any more. Another knee injury might ruin his career.

If and when he goes down, the Heat's dreams go with him. That much is certainly true.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby John3:16 on Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:41 pm

He might be playing possum. Waiting for the playoffs. Not a bad strategy if true. He might also really be breaking down, as most players of his style (attacking the rim with reckless abandon) do.

Wade lovers will claim he's on par with Kobe. I think he's a notch below that.... maybe above a Vince Carter / Tracy McGrady in their primes, but definitely not on Kobe's level. Is Wade top 25 all time? Maybe. Was he ever in the league MVP discussion? Not that I recall.

At the end of the day, I felt his first ring was heavily ref influenced and that won't change. The 2nd was LeBron's coming out party.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:57 pm

I think he's got 2 years max.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Maluco Beleza on Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:13 pm

lol a friend of mine once told me that Wade would be better than Kobe
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Armani on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:48 am

I like how he's playing frankly. He actually plays defense... you know, that thing our team is allergic to. He's averaging 20 because the team doesn't need elite offensive production for him. So coast a bit on offense, and play both ends of the floor. In the playoffs, if the team needs him, he will step it up and go back to being the 2nd best SG ( though James Harden has a serious case there).
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby wcsoldier81 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:04 am

Not quick or athletic as he used to be ... doesn't have the B-Ball skills AND the work ethic to adapt his game to keep performing around the same level of his prime

Simple as that .
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:14 pm

Heat fan here crashing your boards, but hear me out for a second here, I have to address some of the stuff being said here.

What enigma? He is recovering from knee surgery. He didn't play very well his first month, but since then, he's been playing terrific (despite low minutes). He can't erase his stats from the first month, what do you expect his stats to look like 1 month later? He is not "breaking down before your eyes." He is recovering before your eyes. I don't understand how people miss this.

Nikez, I don't know what to say to the fact that you "never felt wade was a premier superstar in this league." Your feelings are crazy. John 3:16, he was never in the discussion for league MVP? What are you talking about? He was a perrennial MVP candidate. Even his first season with Lebron, he was a serious mvp candidate. And was he "in the discussion" during his 08/09 season? 30.2 pts, 7.5 assists, 5.0 rebounds, 1.3 blocks per game, and player efficiency rating of 30.46? I'm sorry but this is major delusion here.

You want to dismiss his '06 finals performance (if that were possible) because he got a lot of foul calls? And you think that means you don't have to admit that he played incredible? Incidentally, before you keep saying that, watch this video breaking down game 6 of that series, just so you see exactly how "ref influenced" that series was.

http://www.bballbreakdown.com/2006-nba- ... -the-refs/

Watch if you're interested. If you're not interested, then stop talking about the refs in '06.

Also incidentally, which finals performance from Kobe do you think ranks higher than Wade's? How do you feel if I tell you that the first three championships were all about Shaq, and in 2010 Gasol should have been MVP? The only series where Kobe was the clear-cut finals MVP was '09, and that was not as impressive as Wade's. And Wade's finals performance in '06 was better than James' finals performance in '11 as well. So the most impressive finals performance out of all of them is the one you want to dismiss. It's incredible how much disrespect Wade gets!

wcsoldier81, he doesn't have the skills or work ethic to adapt? How about developing a great post-up game in his past few seasons? And have you been ignoring the fact that he has improved his jump shot tremendously this season? What are you basing that statement on?

I'm not going to get into an argument of Kobe vs. Wade with a bunch of laker fans, but you shouldn't dismiss the comparison so easily. Wade very likely will retire with a significantly hiring player efficiency rating for his career than Kobe (despite starting to play at a much older age). Kobe may be a better scorer, but Wade has ALWAYS been a more efficient scorer. And as for defense, despite the fact that Kobe inexplicably gets All-Defense first team and Wade always is on 2nd Team, people have known for a while that Wade is a better defender (not even counting the fact that he is the all-time greatest shot-blocking guard!). There is no other superstar that gets such disrespect! I'm not going argue that Wade all time is greater than Kobe, I'll give Kobe that, but just so you know, not al the stats (including the most important stat, PER) support that!

But this season, look past the numbers people. Normally I would say Kobe's better numbers are offset by the fact that he plays much more minutes and takes much more shots, but I won't do that, because that in itself is actually probably the most impressive thing about Kobe this season at his age, in my opinion. But the fact remains that Kobe is filling in the vortex of a black whole that is the Lakers this season, where as Wade is the number 2 option on a well functioning team with many scoring options. He can't just score whenever he wants to. Not with Lebron, Chris Bosh, Ray Allen, and all the open threes the role players get with them on the court.Put Kobe on the Heat and I guarantee you he's not going to be putting up very gaudy numbers (if he knows what's good for him).

And please do not mention James Harden here. Put Wade on the Rockets and let him run wild with as many shot attempts as he pleases, and Wade would be putting up ridiculousl numbers. Harden is not all of the sudden so much greater of a player than he was with OKC, when, surrounded by talent, he averaged 17 points a game.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby John3:16 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:42 pm

ccameron wrote:John 3:16, he was never in the discussion for league MVP? What are you talking about? He was a perrennial MVP candidate. Even his first season with Lebron, he was a serious mvp candidate. And was he "in the discussion during his 08/09 season? 30.2 pts, 7.5 assists, 5.0 rebounds, 1.3 blocks per game, and player efficiency rating of 30.46? I'm sorry but this is major delusion here.


I said "not that I recall". He came in 3rd place in 09, so yes, he was strongly considered that year. His first year with Lebron (the other year you mentioned) he had like 10 points total. Not first place votes. TOTAL. That's like 10 more then me and you and we didn't even play. Let's just say you were right about 09 and leave his first year with Lebron out of this.

Despite the detailed response, he's not on Kobe's level. Wade is compared to Kobe. Kobe is compared to Jordan. See the difference?

And welcome to the site. :jam2:
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:09 pm

John3:16 wrote: I said "not that I recall". He came in 3rd place in 09, so yes, he was strongly considered that year. His first year with Lebron (the other year you mentioned) he had like 10 points total. Not first place votes. TOTAL. That's like 10 more then me and you and we didn't even play. Let's just say you were right about 09 and leave his first year with Lebron out of this.

Despite the detailed response, he's not on Kobe's level. Wade is compared to Kobe. Kobe is compared to Jordan. See the difference?

And welcome to the site. :jam2:


The reason you offer as to why Wade is not on Kobe's level is the same reason that everyone gives. Because he's Kobe. I'm willing to accept that Kobe is all time greater than Wade, but I hope you all realize that a lot of that is not necessarily based on actual stats. What I'm not willing to accept is that Kobe is an some "other level" than Wade. Wade has been better than Kobe since that 08/09 season. If you want to argue that, look at the stats first.

The problem with Wade's reputation is that he has received the opposite treatment from Kobe. Since Kobe entered the league, he was the star. He has been given the benefit of the doubt even he shouldn't have, past his prime. It's exactly why he always gets on All-Defense first team. With Wade, it's the opposite. When he entered the league, he was ignored in favor of Lebron and Carmelo. Wade had to force everyone to pay attention in '06. And now that Wade has reached his peak, he is drastically underrated.

As an example, how in the world ESPN ranked him eight last season (behind Derrick Rose and Dwight Howard, who like Wade were injured for much of the season, but had much worse stats, and yes, Kobe, who although he averaged a lot of points had one of the worst shooting years of his career) is beyond me. He was third in the league in PER that year, despite his injuries. And that is the reason people don't put him on Kobe's level -- because the media has never wanted to.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby John3:16 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:38 pm

ccameron wrote:Wade has been better than Kobe since that 08/09 season. If you want to argue that, look at the stats first.

Should we start with this years stats?

As an example, how in the world ESPN ranked him eight last season (behind Derrick Rose and Dwight Howard, who like Wade were injured for much of the season, but had much worse stats, and yes, Kobe, who although he averaged a lot of points had one of the worst shooting years of his career) is beyond me.

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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:57 pm

Two things:

Wade isn't in the same stratosphere as Kobe because he has never been outright, head and shoulders better than Kobe Bryant at any point in his career. The 08/09 season is closest. I'd say that's the one season he gets the clear advantage over Bryant. The next season is very comparable. The next season is very comparable, edge to Wade probably. The last two Wade falls apart in comparison.

But he never had a signiture year where he was just WAY better than Kobe Bryant. You can go to 08/09 if you want, but Kobe won a ring that year! And he won another one the year after! Stats can say what they want, but Championships don't lie.

Like John3:16 said, Wade is compared to Kobe. Kobe is compared to Jordan. Not many people would entertain the comparison of Wade to Jordan, would they?
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby Texas Lakers Fan on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:36 pm

:man10: @ Wade ever being better than Kobe.

He NEVER has been better than Kobe and career wise Kobe rapes him.

Wade's first championship was fixed and last year he rode LeBron to a second one.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby nameant on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:40 pm

I like Wade but comparable to Kobe? Nope.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:47 pm

therealdeal wrote:Two things:

Wade isn't in the same stratosphere as Kobe because he has never been outright, head and shoulders better than Kobe Bryant at any point in his career. The 08/09 season is closest. I'd say that's the one season he gets the clear advantage over Bryant. The next season is very comparable. The next season is very comparable, edge to Wade probably. The last two Wade falls apart in comparison.

But he never had a signiture year where he was just WAY better than Kobe Bryant. You can go to 08/09 if you want, but Kobe won a ring that year! And he won another one the year after! Stats can say what they want, but Championships don't lie.

Like John3:16 said, Wade is compared to Kobe. Kobe is compared to Jordan. Not many people would entertain the comparison of Wade to Jordan, would they?



I don't understand this logic at all. Because Wade wasn't WAY better than Kobe, therefore he is not in the same stratosphere as Kobe? Why? He doesn't have to be any better to be in the same stratosphere. But take a closer look at those years, and I think you will see that Wad in fact WAS way better. I'm going to use PER because that's the simplest way to show it:

08-09 PER: Wade: 30.46 (2nd in the league), Kobe 24.46 (6th)
09-10 PER: Wade 28.10 (2nd), Kobe 21.95 (15th)

And through those two seasons, Kobe was somehow given the benefit of the doubt. Wade doesn't get any of that.

And what do you mean the last two seasons the comparison falls apart? What are you looking at?

10-11 PER: Wade 25.65 (3rd), Kobe 23.94 (5th)
11-12 PER: Wade 26.37 (3rd), Kobe 21.95 (17th)

In 10-11, their stats seemed almost identical, but PER showed how much more efficient Wade was. So what were you looking at when you said the comparison falls apart? in 2011-12, Kobe seemed to have better stats because he was second in the league in scoring, but it was actually a bad year for Kobe. He shot 43%! Wade on the other hand had less gaudy numbers on less minutes and less shot attempts, but was a lot more efficient.

Also, don't forget Wade was better in 06-07 as well:

06-07 PER: Wade 29.04 (1st), Kobe 26.13 (5th).

The only reason I didn't go that far back is because Wade had a subpar year in 07-08 when he came back from surgery. Other than than year coming back from surgery, Wade has been better. A lot better, if you look at the stats.

And those PER numbers for Kobe are actually pretty repersentative for his whole career. His best years were 2005-2006 (28.11, 3rd in the league), and 2002-2003 (27.07). But in 05-06, Wade was in his third year and was right behind him at 27.68 (4th in the league), and of course he won the championship that year. And in 02-03, of course Wade wasn't even playing yet.

And if you start saying there is something wrong with PER, I don't agree in this case. There have been articles that the weakness of PER is actually that it rewards volume shooters and underrates good defensive players. If anything, that would play in Kobe's favor.

All of this, and I am willing to concede Kobe will be greater all time than Wade, but enough with the stratosphere nonsense!
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:56 pm

John3:16 wrote:
ccameron wrote:Wade has been better than Kobe since that 08/09 season. If you want to argue that, look at the stats first.

Should we start with this years stats?

As an example, how in the world ESPN ranked him eight last season (behind Derrick Rose and Dwight Howard, who like Wade were injured for much of the season, but had much worse stats, and yes, Kobe, who although he averaged a lot of points had one of the worst shooting years of his career) is beyond me.

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I give Kobe respect for this season, he's playing very well, his stats are high and this season his PER backs up his numbers. But it's two months into the season, and at least one of those months Wade was affected by recovering from knee surgery (and his teamates and Wade himself say he is still recovering). We'll see by hte end of the year.

By the way, Wade will not score more than Kobe this season. It's just not feasible considering their different situations. I predict Wade's PER will be higher than Kobe's by the end of the season, however.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:21 pm

ccameron wrote:
therealdeal wrote:Two things:

Wade isn't in the same stratosphere as Kobe because he has never been outright, head and shoulders better than Kobe Bryant at any point in his career. The 08/09 season is closest. I'd say that's the one season he gets the clear advantage over Bryant. The next season is very comparable. The next season is very comparable, edge to Wade probably. The last two Wade falls apart in comparison.

But he never had a signiture year where he was just WAY better than Kobe Bryant. You can go to 08/09 if you want, but Kobe won a ring that year! And he won another one the year after! Stats can say what they want, but Championships don't lie.

Like John3:16 said, Wade is compared to Kobe. Kobe is compared to Jordan. Not many people would entertain the comparison of Wade to Jordan, would they?



I don't understand this logic at all. Because Wade wasn't WAY better than Kobe, therefore he is not in the same stratosphere as Kobe? Why?
Sorry I forgot to explain: because Kobe HAS been head and shoulders better than Wade. He's been better than him for long periods of time, including the last two years.

Why would anyone put Wade in the same sentence as Kobe when 1. Wade has never enjoyed the same level of success as Kobe. Never. and 2. He's never put together a stretch of extended time when he was absolutely better than Kobe Bryant?

And I'm sorry, I just don't stand by PER. I think it's a silly metric and although it was Hollinger's claim to fame, I just don't put any merit into it.

ccameron wrote:And through those two seasons, Kobe was somehow given the benefit of the doubt. Wade doesn't get any of that.

In those two seasons Kobe Bryant won a Championship :man10: That's why he's given the benefit of the doubt.

And seriously stop with this "Wade wasn't loved" nonsense. Wade was given far more love than Kobe Bryant after Kobe's rape incident. Fame doesn't mean benefit of the doubt. Iverson was famous, doesn't mean people automatically gave him anything. Wade gets referee assistance every time he's on the floor, and that can't be denied. Much like Harden and Paul, Wade gets whistles that don't belong to him because of actions he used to take or had taken or they thought he would take. If you watch Laker games and see the contact Kobe deals with on a nightly basis, you'd see what I mean. Wade hasn't driven as much this season, but when he did he would get some of the worst calls I've ever seen.

ccameron wrote:In 10-11, their stats seemed almost identical, but PER showed how much more efficient Wade was. So what were you looking at when you said the comparison falls apart?

Again, nothing against you, but I don't care about PER. I think it's a silly metric. Was Wade more efficient in 10-11? Yes. But he wasn't as efficient from deep OR from the line.

And when I said the last two years things fall apart I'm including this season (11/12 and 12/13).

ccameron wrote:Also, don't forget Wade was better in 06-07 as well,


Whoa. In 06-07 Kobe scored more points (lead the league), averaged more rebounds, averaged less assists but also less turnovers, shot better from deep and from the line, and Wade didn't even play the entire season! Who knows if his averages would have stayed that high if he'd played another 20 games. Kobe's scoring performances in 06-07 were also on another planet then Wade has ever sniffed. He had 10 games scoring over 50 points (2 over 60). Wade has scored 50 or more, what 3 times?

ccameron wrote:All of this, and I am willing to concede Kobe will be greater all time than Wade, but enough with the stratosphere nonsense!


No :man10:

He's not on the same level as Kobe Bryant. That's not an insult, just a fact. I know you're a Heat fan, but it is what it is. Most rational fans of the Lakers know that Kobe is quickly losing the ability to compare to Jordan. You should do the same.

The fact is Kobe has been great longer than anything Wade can ever try to compare to. In Kobe's 17 season he's out performing Wade in his 10th. That's everything you ought to need right there.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:41 pm

Sorry I forgot to explain: because Kobe HAS been head and shoulders better than Wade. He's been better than him for long periods of time, including the last two years.

Why would anyone put Wade in the same sentence as Kobe when 1. Wade has never enjoyed the same level of success as Kobe. Never. and 2. He's never put together a stretch of extended time when he was absolutely better than Kobe Bryant?

And I'm sorry, I just don't stand by PER. I think it's a silly metric and although it was Hollinger's claim to fame, I just don't put any merit into it.


Sorry, but you would like to use points per game instead? You think that is a more complete indicator of a player's ability? Or do you not like PER because Kobe's is not as good as you would think? What other superstar is so drastically misrepresented by PER that makes you not like it? I understand its not as useful for role players who don't get the same opportunities, but not superstar who get all the opportunists in the world to showcase their skills. And like I said earlier, the weakness of PER, as has been extensively written about, is that it rewards volume shooters and underrates good defenders. This would play into Kobe's favor if anything. Wade, a very underrated defender who is most definitely not a volume scorer, stands to lose. Yet by this metric, wade has been significantly better than Kobe for most of their careers, over whatever timespan you choose.

And this not by a small margin! I appreciate that you can argue against stats, it doesn't tell the whole story, but you can't ignore it.

60 points in one game is amazing, but what does that prove? That he has a lot of balls to take so many shots!

Last year, I'm sorry, but Kobe did not outplay wade. Forget PER, just look at fg percentage. And if you want to talk about 3 pointers and free throws, look at true shooting percentage. He put up Gaudy numbers but did NOT play well.

This season kobe is playing a lot better, but recognize that wade has been recovering from knee surgery, and he is In a very different situation. Not to take away anything from Kobe's season, but if he were on the heat, it would be detrimental for him to try to put up those numbers. Wade is quietly returning to his efficient self. And the season is not over. But dont think justs because wade wont average as many points as Kobe that that somehow settles anything.

At the end of the day, I'm not even arguing that wade is going down as better than Kobe, even if he wins a few more titles. But to argue Kobe is in some other league than wade? Sorry, but the stats show otherwise. He's right there. The edge goes to Kobe only because of 1)longevity ( although we'll see how the rest of Wade's career goes) and 2) more titles (although well see how many more Wade wins, again-- and don't talk about rising LebronS coat tails -- wade already did it alone, and Kobe fans should be the last people to talk about riding anyone's coat tails).
Last edited by ccameron on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:41 pm

Double post
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:07 pm

ccameron wrote:
therealdeal wrote:Two things:

Wade isn't in the same stratosphere as Kobe because he has never been outright, head and shoulders better than Kobe Bryant at any point in his career. The 08/09 season is closest. I'd say that's the one season he gets the clear advantage over Bryant. The next season is very comparable. The next season is very comparable, edge to Wade probably. The last two Wade falls apart in comparison.

But he never had a signiture year where he was just WAY better than Kobe Bryant. You can go to 08/09 if you want, but Kobe won a ring that year! And he won another one the year after! Stats can say what they want, but Championships don't lie.

Like John3:16 said, Wade is compared to Kobe. Kobe is compared to Jordan. Not many people would entertain the comparison of Wade to Jordan, would they?



I don't understand this logic at all. Because Wade wasn't WAY better than Kobe, therefore he is not in the same stratosphere as Kobe? Why? He doesn't have to be any better to be in the same stratosphere. But take a closer look at those years, and I think you will see that Wad in fact WAS way better. I'm going to use PER because that's the simplest way to show it:

08-09 PER: Wade: 30.46 (2nd in the league), Kobe 24.46 (6th)
09-10 PER: Wade 28.10 (2nd), Kobe 21.95 (15th)

And through those two seasons, Kobe was somehow given the benefit of the doubt. Wade doesn't get any of that.

And what do you mean the last two seasons the comparison falls apart? What are you looking at?

10-11 PER: Wade 25.65 (3rd), Kobe 23.94 (5th)
11-12 PER: Wade 26.37 (3rd), Kobe 21.95 (17th)

In 10-11, their stats seemed almost identical, but PER showed how much more efficient Wade was. So what were you looking at when you said the comparison falls apart? in 2011-12, Kobe seemed to have better stats because he was second in the league in scoring, but it was actually a bad year for Kobe. He shot 43%! Wade on the other hand had less gaudy numbers on less minutes and less shot attempts, but was a lot more efficient.

Also, don't forget Wade was better in 06-07 as well:

06-07 PER: Wade 29.04 (1st), Kobe 26.13 (5th).

The only reason I didn't go that far back is because Wade had a subpar year in 07-08 when he came back from surgery. Other than than year coming back from surgery, Wade has been better. A lot better, if you look at the stats.

And those PER numbers for Kobe are actually pretty repersentative for his whole career. His best years were 2005-2006 (28.11, 3rd in the league), and 2002-2003 (27.07). But in 05-06, Wade was in his third year and was right behind him at 27.68 (4th in the league), and of course he won the championship that year. And in 02-03, of course Wade wasn't even playing yet.

And if you start saying there is something wrong with PER, I don't agree in this case. There have been articles that the weakness of PER is actually that it rewards volume shooters and underrates good defensive players. If anything, that would play in Kobe's favor.

All of this, and I am willing to concede Kobe will be greater all time than Wade, but enough with the stratosphere nonsense!

Sorry buddy. PER doesn't hold much weight. Even Hollinger would probably admit that he invented PER for the sole reason of getting himself a GM position. There's no correlation between PER and player quality, since there are many scrubs and role players with higher PERs than Kobe and Wade.

Wade was overhyped for a few years after his championship run. Now he's come back to Earth.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:37 pm

Fine, forget PER, look at their career stats that go into PER. Please tell me where you get "other stratosphere" from:


Wade: 24.9 points per game on .487 shooting percentage on 8.8 of 18.1 shots, .770 free throw percentage, 5.0 rebounds, 6.1 assists, 1.0 blocks, 1.7 steals, 3.5 turnovers

Kobe: Career25.5 points per game, .454 percent shooting on 8.9-19.6 shots, .838 free throw percentage, 5.3 rebounds, 4.7 assists, 0.5 blocks, 1.5 steals, and 3.

Looks like the same stratosphere to me. And by the way, please name another superstar player that you feel is drastically mischaracterized by PER. If Kobe is the only one, then you might have to rethink your complete dismissal of it.
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby ccameron on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:15 pm

I'll say this, just to clarify my position: I think Kobe has a good case to be in the top ten all time. Wade I think fits in the top 25, 20 if he keeps playing well. But a big part of the difference between their success is not necessarily their talent. They are not that far apart.

Another good example of someone who is underrated and extremely efficient is another LA player, Chris Paul. I would take him over Derrick Rose as point guard any day, despite how much espn and all the media love Derrick rose ( and for the record, I like rosé too). Chris paul hasn't had success in terms of titles or awards, and he doesn't average the points per game like Kobe or wade, but is an efficiency monster. (And yes, PER reflects that by the way :jam2: )
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Re: The Enigma of Dwyane Wade

Postby abeer3 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:53 pm

lol at a heat fan denying that the refs handed them the 06 finals. what a joke.

wade's never been on kobe's level, and he won't get there as lebron's cabana boy.
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