The GOAT...before a decade

Iceberg Slim · by **Iceberg Slim** on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:46 am

Ad nausem, we have discussed who's better than who, at what time, and why? Kobe, Bron, and Durant, all stand in the shadow of Michael Jordan as the new wing of players ascending to the throne. It got me thinking about Michael's career after merely the first retirement.

He played 9 years by the time he retired. His resume looked like this:

31.4 points
6.0 assists
5.6 rebounds
50% fg

His hardware: 3 MVP's, 3 rings, 3 Finals MVP's, 1 DPOY.

By 98, he'd double his championship and finals MVP total. 2 regular season MVP's to boot.

So in response to all the predictions of Kobe's greatness, Bron's prodigious talents, and Kevin Durant's young prominence, isn't this all just talk.

How ridiculous was it that, on a honest level, he was considered the GOAT before he hit a decade...and its justified.

TIME · by **TIME** on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:50 am

He was top 10 at that point, but rings are too important IMO, so not #1 at that point. I still had Magic ahead of him for example.

Iceberg Slim · by **Iceberg Slim** on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:03 am

Rings are important. But body of work along with rings is more important. No one will pass Bill Russell in ring totals. But Mike, Magic, and Kareem are always placed above him. Kobe can get 7 rings, he'll never be better than Mike at this point. I have come to simply acknowledge that.

You got Magic above him. That's cool. But you say he's top 10...not top 3-5 at just that point? Who would you have above him at that point?

therealdeal · by **therealdeal** on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:26 am

Kareem
Magic
Russell
Bird
Chamberlain

At that point were above him in my opinion. Obivously it's just my opinion, but that's where I put Jordan after his first 3 titles.

gcclaker · by **gcclaker** on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:32 am

therealdeal wrote:Kareem
Magic
Russell
Bird
Chamberlain

At that point were above him in my opinion. Obivously it's just my opinion, but that's where I put Jordan after his first 3 titles.

...sums it up for me too.

Chillbongo · by **Chillbongo** on Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:23 pm

Well this is purely a speculative discussion, because no one's "place" in GOAT discussion is usually determined before their first 10 years. Usually. There are exceptions (Russel, Wilt, etc).

In this day and age, with this many teams it's too hard to say. Jordan had a fine resume at that point already, but there's no telling where he would've ended up just by 1994. Would he still be considered the GOAT without those 3 titles from 96-98? If he didn't win, I know a lot of people that would still have Magic & Kareem ahead of him. Bird?

It's like the LeBron thing. Yes, as a single player, he is gifted with the most amazing attributes. But you cannot truly judge a player's place in GOAT discussion without rings. And until it's all said and done, you won't know how many rings.

If Jordan gets injured, and never wins a ring post-1992, where does he end up? If LeBron doesn't win another ring is he still top 10?

Tim Duncan had 4 rings in 10 years. By the decade measuring stick, he accomplished more than Jordan.

4-time Champion, 3 time Finals MVP, 2 time MVP, 9-time All Star, 7-time 1st team defense, ROY

Injuries, league dynamics, rules changes -- these tings influence outcomes. 10 isn't enough.

ramsay13 · by **ramsay13** on Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:42 pm

Timmy won 4championships in separate seasons. Jordan won them in repetitive seasons.

tttttada · by **tttttada** on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:33 am

To me Jordan is the GOAT because he fast-forwarded the game by 20 years on AND off the court. His stats and achievements are only an icing on the cake. There will never be an equal.

Jazzygirl205 · by **Jazzygirl205** on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:37 am

I still worship Jordan above all other athletes, even Micheal Phelps. I kind of loathe athlete comparisons to be honest. I kind of overshadows their accomplishments as a individual player because of all of the constant comparing of other players. The focus needs to be on them and what they done to change their sport and game.

John3:16 · by **John3:16** on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:57 am

TIME wrote:He was top 10 at that point, but rings are too important IMO, so not #1 at that point. I still had Magic ahead of him for example.

I did too. I told all those Bulls fans (who are no longer Bulls fans BTW) that when he got to 5, come talk to me. He did and they did. :man10:

Iceberg Slim · by **Iceberg Slim** on Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:52 am

By 1993, I'd have 3 guys above him. KAJ, Magic, and Russell in that order. But that's where it ends. Bird? Someone make that argument, if there is a viable one. In my opinion, MJ places himself over Bird with the accomplishment of the first three-peat.

Btw, great post Chillbongo. That's the insight I was looking for.

TIME · by **TIME** on Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:48 am

Iceberg Slim wrote:By 1993, I'd have 3 guys above him. KAJ, Magic, and Russell in that order. But that's where it ends. Bird? Someone make that argument, if there is a viable one. In my opinion, MJ places himself over Bird with the accomplishment of the first three-peat.

Bird vs. Jordan after his first 3 peat is arguable, and both sides could make valid points. I would lean toward Bird. The main point I would make is that Bird's teams faced MUCH stronger opposition in the playoffs every year than Jordan ever did except for his first championship. Also, head to head in the playoffs Bird won, though Jordan did have a spectacular individual performance (the 63 point game).

Iceberg Slim · by **Iceberg Slim** on Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:08 pm

I'd lean toward Michael for the one reason that separates himself from every other guard and/or player in the history of the league - his defense. By 93', he was First-Team All Defense 6 times, 88-93. In 88' he wins the DPOY, 1 of only 6 guards ever to do so. With his flair for the dramatic ending, superior athleticism tied in with his basketball I.Q. and quotes by contemporaries like Magic saying, "There's Michael Jordan and then there's the rest of us", which makes me place him above Bird.

TIME · by **TIME** on Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:23 pm

Iceberg Slim wrote:I'd lean toward Michael for the one reason that separates himself from every other guard and/or player in the history of the league - his defense. By 93', he was First-Team All Defense 6 times, 88-93. In 88' he wins the DPOY, 1 of only 6 guards ever to do so. With his flair for the dramatic ending, superior athleticism tied in with his basketball I.Q. and quotes by contemporaries like Magic saying, "There's Michael Jordan and then there's the rest of us", which makes me place him above Bird.

Some good points, and some not so good. Bird had just as much flair for the dramatic as Jordan. Bird played at the highest level with far less athleticism. Bird had even higher BBall IQ than MJ. The Magic quote doesn't apply at all because we are talking about where he fits all time after only three championships and you have already acknowledged that you have others ahead of him at that point.

Rooscooter · by **Rooscooter** on Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:31 pm

TIME wrote:He was top 10 at that point, but rings are too important IMO, so not #1 at that point. I still had Magic ahead of him for example.

The importance of Rings is puzzling. Championships are a team accomplishment that is dependent on health, coaching and the willingness of a franchise to spend money. Plenty of great players are great players but never get all three at the same time to win a championship. It's not within the talents or abilities of any ONE player to win a championship.

I don't disagree that the debate comes down to championships..... I do however disagree, if we are talking about the greatest players, including championships and especially MVP's or any other "Individual" award.... because again, those awards don't go to great players whose team, coach and organization aren't achieving.

For me.... walking away from the game shows some character issues that keep MJ from being the one I consider the best player I've ever seen play. Kareem is the best I've seen play regardless of awards or titles. Consistency, still adjusting and developing his game into his late 30's, longevity an sheer skill. No total package is better IMO.

As for others I've seen play.... in no particular order, would be guys like Jordan, Kobe, Bird, Magic, Hondo and a guy no one ever puts in this group..... Maravich. He was Jordan/Kobe and LeBron all in one and played in the lost 70's on horrible teams. Injuries kept him from putting up massive numbers.... Is he the GOAT.... no but he's a massively overlooked great who, when healthy, was one of the best 4 or 5 I ever saw play.... that's for sure.

I didn't see Wilt, Russell, Baylor, Oscar or Mikan play so I can't do anything other than look at stats and extrapolate.

..... also what is the importance of 10 years?.... Is the OP trying to say that what Jordan did after that is of no consequence in a GOAT argument?..... he was so good in that first 10 years that no one can come close because he came back and did more?....

Iceberg Slim · by **Iceberg Slim** on Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:14 am

The importance of 10 years speaks to the player comparisons we have discusssed when it comes modern day players like Kobe Bryant and Lebron James. Recent discussions pertaining to 20K in points for Lebron, 30K for Kobe, and the emergence of Kevin Durant and his prolific scoring made one ask the question. Aside from that, the documentary "Above and Beyond" conjured up the thought, when they revisited MJ's retirement in 1993. Many media outlet's called him the GOAT...and it sounded reasonable at that point. But when thinking about it, it was false. Magic, Kareem, and Russell (imo) belonged above him at that point.

Time, there's no way I could put Bird above him. Both our points are valid but you are ignoring one of the biggest things that separate these two men. Both of these men were offensive geniuses in their own right. One was a world-class lock down defender. One clearly was not.

And to piggyback on Rooscooter's post, The Bulls were trying to find their identity as a young team. The Celtics were established. Phil Jackson didn't step into the scene until 1989. Even in the years Chicago battled against Detroit and Boston, Michael clearly became the best player out of the east after 1986, the last year Bird won a ring. His numbers and physical dominance in the game speaks to that. 1987: 37.1 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 4.6 apg, 2.9 spg, 1.5bpg on 48%. 1988 was simply one the best seasons individually of any player in the history of the league. Jordan was the steals champion, scoring champion, all-star game MVP, regular season MVP, and defensive player of the year...and the dunk champion, for kicks. 35.0 points, 5.5 rebounds, 5.9 assists, 3.2 steals, and 1.6 blocks on 53% for the year.

Larry wore the crown only because his team was superior and he was the best player of them. Bird called him God after those 63 points in the Garden because he knew, later on down the road, young Michael was going to take over. The writing was clearly etched on the wall. Michael is quoted as to saying he was very disappointed when Larry started slowing down to injuries and Magic retired because wanted to dethrone them at their height. Jordan salivated at the opportunity. So by 1993, with Bird matching Mike in ring totals, one less Finals MVP, and Michael being the superior defender, how could I place Bird above him? I can't. It's close. But the edge goes to His Airness.

Iceberg Slim · by **Iceberg Slim** on Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:35 am

For me.... walking away from the game shows some character issues that keep MJ from being the one I consider the best player I've ever seen play. Kareem is the best I've seen play regardless of awards or titles. Consistency, still adjusting and developing his game into his late 30's, longevity an sheer skill. No total package is better IMO.

The importance of rings were puzzling to you. This is puzzling to me. In a world where media began to really stretch its legs and Michael Jordan being a global superstar suffers an emotional injury at the height of his fame like (his father being murdered) you take his retirement as a character flaw? If anything, the idea to step away from a game people know you for, change professions in your prime, to find solace in a game your father dreamed of seeing you play his whole life, should be looked upon as courage executed with honor. I respect KAJ for all the things he stands for which you eloquently stated. His attributes tie him for #1 in basketball lore when discussing who's the best pound-for-pound. But I won't take his attributes and use them against Michael to decide who's character was stronger, per say. No one would have done what Michael did. Very few men could face public scrutiny and disdain the way Jordan did and handle it with grace when he decided to leave. For me, its quite the opposite of a flaw. What we saw was honor. His 4th championship on Father's Day in 1996 was closed the loop.

TIME · by **TIME** on Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:40 am

I love these kinds of discussions.

Slim, I won't argue the defensive issue. MJ was clearly superior, but Bird was no slouch for a slow guy that could not really jump. Bird was a strong team defender though and a better rebounder which has to be factored into the consideration.

I get your point about Bird's team being better, but he made it better as well. And again, the teams Bird played against in the playoffs were much stronger than any teams Jordan ever did in his ring years. If were are talking team effect then you have to factor in that Jordan had the advantage of the much better coach who he never won without. Jordan also had the benefit of one of the very best wing defenders to ever play the game with him in Pippin. You give Bird Pippin and maybe he wins 4 or 5 rings because he has someone that can guard Magic and Dr. J in the playoffs.

Just to be clear, I have Jordan as the best ever, I just can't rank him there after his first three. To me it's a bit like the people who are already claiming LeBron is on Kobe's career level right now.

therealdeal · by **therealdeal** on Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:55 am

TIME wrote:I love these kinds of discussions.

Slim, I won't argue the defensive issue. MJ was clearly superior, but Bird was no slouch for a slow guy that could not really jump. Bird was a strong team defender though and a better rebounder which has to be factored into the consideration.

I get your point about Bird's team being better, but he made it better as well. And again, the teams Bird played against in the playoffs were much stronger than any teams Jordan ever did in his ring years. If were are talking team effect then you have to factor in that Jordan had the advantage of the much better coach who he never won without. Jordan also had the benefit of one of the very best wing defenders to ever play the game with him in Pippin. You give Bird Pippin and maybe he wins 4 or 5 rings because he has someone that can guard Magic and Dr. J in the playoffs.

Just to be clear, I have Jordan as the best ever, I just can't rank him there after his first three. To me it's a bit like the people who are already claiming LeBron is on Kobe's career level right now.

This.

Rooscooter · by **Rooscooter** on Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:35 pm

Iceberg Slim wrote:
For me.... walking away from the game shows some character issues that keep MJ from being the one I consider the best player I've ever seen play. Kareem is the best I've seen play regardless of awards or titles. Consistency, still adjusting and developing his game into his late 30's, longevity an sheer skill. No total package is better IMO.

The importance of rings were puzzling to you. This is puzzling to me.

Did you read why I think rings are a puzzling metric for valuing individual players? You didn't address anything I noted..... in fact you reinforced my argument that the media, sports writers and playing location are factors in valuing individual players..... I don't think they should influence it one bit.... of course I'm not selling shoes or tickets.... :man10:

Some of the best players to ever play didn't win MVP's or Championships.... and it didn't have anything to do with their abilities or talents. To pile that stuff into the formula limits the conversation to just a few teams in the history of the league. ONLY 4 TEAMS HAVE 4 OR MORE CHAMPIONSHIPS.... so through the argument most make and you seem to be reinforcing is that we can only look for the GOAT on the rosters of LA, Boston, Chicago or San Antonio..... Maybe a player or two got more rings by being on two teams that won.... but by that measure we've eliminated 85% of the players that have ever played.

MVP's are a worse measure.... 56 awards to 29 players.... Before 1980 the players chose the MVP.... after that it's media..... where are the "national media" located?..... Hint.... It isn't Minnesota or Sacramento..... :man10:

If you focus on the player, his impact to the game (including how that player changed the players who came after), longevity, drive, progression (did he add to his game every year) and strip out the fluff like team accomplishments and the bogus award you will find the best players IMO.

As for personal tragedies derailing a player..... Jordan's Dad.... or Kobe's Colorado? Which one threw the players life into more turmoil?.... Kobe didn't leave the game....

Iceberg Slim · by **Iceberg Slim** on Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:09 am

A rape case compared to someone's father being murdered? Really?

Rooscooter · by **Rooscooter** on Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:34 pm

Iceberg Slim wrote: A rape case compared to someone's father being murdered? Really?

From your perspective maybe...... imagine it from the "First Person". I'd imagine from Kobe's perspective the prospect of losing his career, his endorsements, his wife and Family was just as traumatic as losing your father to murder. From an outside perspective having something traumatic happen that is outside your control seems different from having something happen that was within your control seem very different.... but I'd bet not much different from Kobe's and Jordan's.

Not sure why we are going on about Kobe and Jordan. I don't think either is the GOAT.... :man10:

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