Top 10 GOAT?

Top 10 GOAT?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:13 pm

Feel free to list your top 10-15 greatest players of all time. I would appreciate it if you made your list with some thought behind it and not just do it in 10 seconds. Here is my top 20. Feel free to dissect.

1) Michael Jordan - He is the standard to which all others are compared.

2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar - The only guy who can make a legitimate case of being the GOAT right up there with Jordan.

3) Magic Johnson

4) Bill Russell - Personally not too high on him as I rate Olajuwon and Wilt over him in a head to head, skills sense but I have to be objective. 5 regular season mvps and 11 time champion.

5) Wilt Chamberlain - Some of the numbers he put up are out of this world. Like scoring 100 in a game or averaging 50 ppg in a season. 4 time regular season mvp and 2 time champion.

6) Kobe Bryant

7) Larry Bird

8) Tim Duncan - Can't argue with 4 rings, 3 finals mvps and 2 regular season mvps to go along with being the best ever at his position.

9) Hakeem Olajuwon - I personally have him higher in a head to head, skills sense but this is based on resume and accomplishments. He dominated in possibly the strongest era for centers. His mastery over Robinson, Ewing and O'Neal in the playoffs are legendary stuff. I think without a doubt, the most well rounded, skilled center to ever play the game. Some were taller, stronger or faster but none had his overall game. He had no weakness on either end. And oh yeah, he won 2 DPOY award to boot.

10) Shaquille O'Neal

11) LeBron James - It is what it is. 2 time finals mvp and 4 time regular season mvp. That is some serious stuff right there and he's just getting started.

12) Oscar Robertson - 1 ring, 1 regular season mvp. But most known for averaging a triple double over a full season, which is unreal.

13) Moses Malone - 3 time mvp, 1 ring. One of the most dominate players of his era.

14) Elgin Baylor - He was the Jordan and Erving of his time. 3rd all time in scoring average and surprisingly, 10th all time in rebounding average.

15) Karl Malone - A ring is the only thing missing from making him a top 10 player. 2 regular season mvps and a dominant offensive force.

16) Charles Barkley

17) Jerry West

18) Isiah Thomas - One of the most underrated greats of all time. Won two rings in maybe the most competitive era in NBA history, beating the like of the Celtics, Lakers and Bulls in the process.

19) Julius Erving

20) Steve Nash - No one did more with less talent. Possibly the most skilled player to ever lace them up.

Just missed the top 20 - Iverson, Dwayne Wade, Kevin Garnett

And let me add that my rankings are somewhat interchangeable, especially the lower you go. When we are talking about the greatest of all time, it's tough to make a list. It's all about personal opinion and what you put more emphasis on.
Last edited by Lets Go Lakers on Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:19 pm

Isn't there about one or two of these every off season in here? Why can't we just bump one of the old ones and add/subtract from it?

My opinion on individual players is different than most. I don't look at or weight team accomplishments in my thinking so my opinion differs dramatically from the "ESPN" generation.
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby Finwë on Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:44 am

I think there's too much discrepancy when it comes to stating what makes a player "greater" than another.
I have a personal view on the subject that I always stick to:
Take Shaq vs Hakeem, for example. Who's "greater"?
Shaq was more dominant throughout his career, meaning, he was more statistically productive, and he also won more. He would be the popular choice for "greater" or "better". But Hakeem I thought was actually the "better basketball player", because he went much further in terms of mastering the game, which I think is what makes you truly "better". Not just putting up stats, but mastering different aspects of the game, becoming not just efficient but proficient.
Some people will say, "no, the player that gives a team a better chance of winning with his individual play is the better player". And it's tough to disagree. I just think that we should reward the finetuning of skills, the training and work it takes to achieve great proficiency and master various aspects of the game, maybe even the entire game. Fundamentals, skills, versatility, longevity. Not just being a physical freak who is just too big and too strong to stop.
So, considering this, I've always thought of TWO lists. The first is a list of the "greatest players ever" in the conventional sense, i.e., considering their on-court production and achievements. The second list is a list of (IMO) the best basketball players of all time, using the reasoning I described above.
Here they are:

"GOAT" in the conventional sense: 1) MJ. 2) Kareem. 3) Magic. 4) Russell. 5) Kobe. 6) Shaq 7) Wilt. 8) Bird. 9) Duncan. 10) Hakeem - Big O.


Best basketball players ever (IMO - in terms of mastering the game): 1) MJ - Kobe. 2) Kareem. 3) Bird. 4) Magic. 5) Hakeem. 6) Jerry West. 7) Duncan. 8) Karl Malone. 9) Iverson-Baylor-Maravich 10) John Stockton.

This last one was a very tough list to compile, especially the last three positions. I have other players in mind that you could place in those spots and I wouldn't argue that much.

I went with Malone at 8) because I believe he deserves a lot of recognition for his offensive prowess, and also his ability to sustain it for an amazing period of time. Longevity in terms of sustained excellence is a very important aspect of the game to me, because it shows the depth of a player's ability, their dedication and work ethic, and their versatility.

#9 is a weird part of my list. There I placed players that met my criteria of high level of basketball ability and versatility, but also grouped them together for a special reason: each player was so unique and different in his extensive ability, that they revolutionized their positions.
Iverson gets the spot because his playing style was very unique, and when talking pure ability, his goes through the roof.
He was an impressive and versatile offensive player, and a very disruptive defender too. His tendency to take ill-advised shots or to shoot too much (combined with his lack of certain "accolades") usually gets him bounced from most lists, but I think he deserves a spot.
Same with Baylor and Maravich. Incredible individual talents, but they often get looked over because either people don't know much about them, or focus way too much on championships (which can be unfair, since a player's title hopes can be greately affected by external forces and the circumstances of his time).
I think they deserve more recognition, as they were trascendent players that revolutionized the game.
Dr J could fit the same mold as well. I have him a little lower, but not much.

I went with Stockton at 10) because I think he was as pure a PG as you can find. Magic played a very different style, and I believe he was the better player, but Stockton is that far behind. I don't think any PG has been as fundamentally sound as Stockton other than Nash, but Nash lacked / lacks the defensive ability Stockton had (one of the all-time steals leader).

I leave out Shaq and Wilt, because, while historically GREAT in terms of absolute domination, their close to unparalelled productivity comes almost purely from their once-in-a-lifetime bodies. They weren't really proficient, their basketball "skills" were limited, they couldn't make FTs, and they never got as far as the players on the list in terms of mastering the different areas of the game.

I think other players that would be top 20 are: Kevin Garnett, Nowitzki (I think he's underrated; his offensive game for a big man is extremely unique. His shooting touch arguably unparalelled as centers go, and his skillset is quite complete), Steve Nash (offensively, among the best PGs to ever play the game), Big O, LeBron James, to name some.
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby havoc33 on Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:02 am

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Kareem
6. Bird
7. Kobe
8. Duncan
9. West
10. Shaq

Contrary to what ESPN is trying to convince the world, NO, Lebron does not belong in the top 10 GOAT yet. And certainly not after his somewhat shaky playoff performance (winning cures everything, doesn't it? Remember 4 games into the Finals, all the talk was about what was wrong with Lebron? then he finally decides to show up, gets a huge boost from his teammates, and he's suddenly GOAT again. LOL. If he didn't cheat and make his own allstarteam, he'd STILL be ringless). As it stands now, I'd put him at 12, after Hakeem.
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby funkychunky on Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:59 am

^ Just wondering, what is your reasoning for having Bird over Kobe? I know a lot of people who still have Larry above Kobe but I feel like accolades wise and longevity wise Kobe has a slight advantage.
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby odom1year on Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:46 am

havoc33 wrote:1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Kareem
6. Bird
7. Kobe
8. Duncan
9. West
10. Shaq

Contrary to what ESPN is trying to convince the world, NO, Lebron does not belong in the top 10 GOAT yet. And certainly not after his somewhat shaky playoff performance (winning cures everything, doesn't it? Remember 4 games into the Finals, all the talk was about what was wrong with Lebron? then he finally decides to show up, gets a huge boost from his teammates, and he's suddenly GOAT again. LOL. If he didn't cheat and make his own allstarteam, he'd STILL be ringless). As it stands now, I'd put him at 12, after Hakeem.


So many Lakers on the list. :man4:
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby odom1year on Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:47 am

havoc33 wrote:1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Kareem
6. Bird
7. Kobe
8. Duncan
9. West
10. Shaq

Contrary to what ESPN is trying to convince the world, NO, Lebron does not belong in the top 10 GOAT yet. And certainly not after his somewhat shaky playoff performance (winning cures everything, doesn't it? Remember 4 games into the Finals, all the talk was about what was wrong with Lebron? then he finally decides to show up, gets a huge boost from his teammates, and he's suddenly GOAT again. LOL. If he didn't cheat and make his own allstarteam, he'd STILL be ringless). As it stands now, I'd put him at 12, after Hakeem.


So many Lakers on the list. :man4:
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby havoc33 on Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:40 am

funkychunky wrote:^ Just wondering, what is your reasoning for having Bird over Kobe? I know a lot of people who still have Larry above Kobe but I feel like accolades wise and longevity wise Kobe has a slight advantage.

Well, 6, 7, 8 are all sort of interchangeable IMO. Kobe will beat almost anyone on longevity, and certainly Larry. As for me putting Larry first though, I just keep coming back to the fact that he won 3 straight MVP's and 2/3 championships from 84-86, a period in which Magic also was in his prime (Magic arguably peaked in 87-89, but still..). I just find that damn impressive.
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:21 am

Finwë wrote:I think there's too much discrepancy when it comes to stating what makes a player "greater" than another.
I have a personal view on the subject that I always stick to:
Take Shaq vs Hakeem, for example. Who's "greater"?
Shaq was more dominant throughout his career, meaning, he was more statistically productive, and he also won more. He would be the popular choice for "greater" or "better". But Hakeem I thought was actually the "better basketball player", because he went much further in terms of mastering the game, which I think is what makes you truly "better". Not just putting up stats, but mastering different aspects of the game, becoming not just efficient but proficient.
Some people will say, "no, the player that gives a team a better chance of winning with his individual play is the better player". And it's tough to disagree. I just think that we should reward the finetuning of skills, the training and work it takes to achieve great proficiency and master various aspects of the game, maybe even the entire game. Fundamentals, skills, versatility, longevity. Not just being a physical freak who is just too big and too strong to stop.
So, considering this, I've always thought of TWO lists. The first is a list of the "greatest players ever" in the conventional sense, i.e., considering their on-court production and achievements. The second list is a list of (IMO) the best basketball players of all time, using the reasoning I described above.
Here they are:

"GOAT" in the conventional sense: 1) MJ. 2) Kareem. 3) Magic. 4) Russell. 5) Kobe. 6) Shaq 7) Wilt. 8) Bird. 9) Duncan. 10) Hakeem - Big O.


Best basketball players ever (IMO - in terms of mastering the game): 1) MJ - Kobe. 2) Kareem. 3) Bird. 4) Magic. 5) Hakeem. 6) Jerry West. 7) Duncan. 8) Karl Malone. 9) Iverson-Baylor-Maravich 10) John Stockton.

This last one was a very tough list to compile, especially the last three positions. I have other players in mind that you could place in those spots and I wouldn't argue that much.

I went with Malone at 8) because I believe he deserves a lot of recognition for his offensive prowess, and also his ability to sustain it for an amazing period of time. Longevity in terms of sustained excellence is a very important aspect of the game to me, because it shows the depth of a player's ability, their dedication and work ethic, and their versatility.

#9 is a weird part of my list. There I placed players that met my criteria of high level of basketball ability and versatility, but also grouped them together for a special reason: each player was so unique and different in his extensive ability, that they revolutionized their positions.
Iverson gets the spot because his playing style was very unique, and when talking pure ability, his goes through the roof.
He was an impressive and versatile offensive player, and a very disruptive defender too. His tendency to take ill-advised shots or to shoot too much (combined with his lack of certain "accolades") usually gets him bounced from most lists, but I think he deserves a spot.
Same with Baylor and Maravich. Incredible individual talents, but they often get looked over because either people don't know much about them, or focus way too much on championships (which can be unfair, since a player's title hopes can be greately affected by external forces and the circumstances of his time).
I think they deserve more recognition, as they were trascendent players that revolutionized the game.
Dr J could fit the same mold as well. I have him a little lower, but not much.

I went with Stockton at 10) because I think he was as pure a PG as you can find. Magic played a very different style, and I believe he was the better player, but Stockton is that far behind. I don't think any PG has been as fundamentally sound as Stockton other than Nash, but Nash lacked / lacks the defensive ability Stockton had (one of the all-time steals leader).

I leave out Shaq and Wilt, because, while historically GREAT in terms of absolute domination, their close to unparalelled productivity comes almost purely from their once-in-a-lifetime bodies. They weren't really proficient, their basketball "skills" were limited, they couldn't make FTs, and they never got as far as the players on the list in terms of mastering the different areas of the game.

I think other players that would be top 20 are: Kevin Garnett, Nowitzki (I think he's underrated; his offensive game for a big man is extremely unique. His shooting touch arguably unparalelled as centers go, and his skillset is quite complete), Steve Nash (offensively, among the best PGs to ever play the game), Big O, LeBron James, to name some.


I think Steve Nash has to be in any top 10 "most skilled" list. As a matter of fact, I would say that he just might be the most skilled player ever given his limited raw tools. I mean he was the very definition of pure skill. Anything he did, he had to out skill and out think you because he sure as heck wasn't going to out jump, out run or out quick anyone.

Your conventional top 10 is very close to mine.
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:25 am

funkychunky wrote:^ Just wondering, what is your reasoning for having Bird over Kobe? I know a lot of people who still have Larry above Kobe but I feel like accolades wise and longevity wise Kobe has a slight advantage.


I think most have Kobe over Bird but I don't have a problem with anyone having Bird over Kobe. Bird has 3 regular season MVPs (2 more than Kobe) and just as many Finals MVPs as Kobe. Of course Kobe has 2 more rings. So it depends on what you value more.
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:32 am

To me, the 2nd greatest player of all time behind Jordan is Kareem and I don't think it's even close. I can't imagine how anyone can have Russell or Wilt over Kareem. If you look at Kareem's body of work, it's not even comparable. He has it covered from all angles whether it's team accomplishments, individual accomplishments or head to head skills. To me, he's the only guy who can make a legitimate argument to being the greatest ever along with MJ. His resume actually stacks up. 6X champ, 6 regular season MVPs, 2 Finals mvps, all time scoring leader, 19 time all-star. The list goes on and on. And his success at UCLA is simply legendary.
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby 432J on Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:59 am

i can recall so many threads just like this in the past offseasons, but here's my list

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Wilt
6. Kobe
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Shaq

Right outside the top 10:

11. Oscar
12. K. Malone
13. West
14. Baylor
15. Isiah

16-20:

16. Lebron
17. M. Malone
18. Stockton
19. Garnett
20. Iverson
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby thkthebest on Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:04 am

havoc33 wrote:1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Kareem
6. Bird
7. Kobe
8. Duncan
9. West
10. Shaq

Contrary to what ESPN is trying to convince the world, NO, Lebron does not belong in the top 10 GOAT yet. And certainly not after his somewhat shaky playoff performance (winning cures everything, doesn't it? Remember 4 games into the Finals, all the talk was about what was wrong with Lebron? then he finally decides to show up, gets a huge boost from his teammates, and he's suddenly GOAT again. LOL. If he didn't cheat and make his own allstarteam, he'd STILL be ringless). As it stands now, I'd put him at 12, after Hakeem.

So...if that's why you don't have LeBron in the top 10, then why in the world is Wilt #2 on your list? Not Russell. Not Kareem. Not Kobe. You have Wilt.

Wilt's the same guy who averaged 50 ppg only to score a season low 22 points in an important game 7. Meschery (a guy who averaged 12 ppg) scored 32 in game 7. He scored 27 in game 6 and helped force that game 7, but only LeBron gets help from other players, right? Wilt's the same guy who lost a 3-1 lead to Russell's Celtics (first time in history then). He only scored 14 points in that pivotal game 7 and then proceeded to demand a trade away from the 76ers. While he was demanding trades, Russell was winning rings and coaching the Celtics himself. Wilt has only won 2 championships. In the first one, he only averaged 17.7 ppg. In the second, he averaged 19.4 ppg.

Wilt averaged 30.1 ppg in the regular season. 22.5 ppg in the playoffs. 18.6 ppg in the finals. So...seems like inconsistent reasoning to me. :man3:
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby Rooscooter on Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:39 am

I take a different approach to individual lists as I noted above. I don't really weight that heavily the team accomplishments as about 75% of the total championships ever in the NBA have been won by just 6 teams.

Individual ability doesn't change because you have great teammates and accomplish team accomplishments. No Championship was won on the back of just one player. It typically takes two top players and a cohesive team behind them to win so equating that fact with one players ability seems to be a disconnect to me.

Players that changed the game or brought things to it that were not conceived prior I put higher than most. Robertson, Maravich, Baylor, Magic did things that had never been done before for players at their position and revolutionized the game.

1. Kareem (Longevity, consistency and mental toughness to play at a very high level for 18 of his 20 years)
2. Jordan (Left the game twice. Other than that a transcendent player)
3. Kobe (not done yet. Coming back dominant from this injury could put him up there even higher. No one has ever wanted it more)
4. Magic (illness shortened what could have been)
5. Wilt (Defined dominant. Scoring averages were insane even when you factor in the competition, led the league in assists just to show he could)
6. Baylor (similar to Pistol Pete. innovative and revolutionary game, most explosive scorer other than Wilt/Kobe/Jordan)
7. Bird (Only Kobe has wanted it more. Best shooter under pressure other than Kareem IMO)
8. Maravich (lost in the obscurity of the 70's. Without him Magic, Bird and Kobe's games wouldn't have evolved. greatest college player ever)
9. Russell (great defender/rebounder and the glue that held those Boston teams together)
10. Robertson (another innovative and multidimensional player that re-defined the position, averaged a triple double for a season)

LeBron isn't finished yet. At current he's probably in the top 5 or 6 but I wouldn't put him in there until he's in his mid 30's. He has the potential to be top 3 easily is he stays injury free and continues to improve.

Others just out of this list would be the Cousy, Mailman, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Pettit, Barkley, Dr. J, Gervin, The Big E, Malone, Wade, Pippen, Payton, Stockton, Garnett, Wilkins, Barry, Mikan..... off the top of my head.
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby therealdeal on Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:53 am

I've never really believed in a Greatest of All-Time. Ever since I saw the idea of a "Greatest Starting Five" I've really appreciated that more. Obviously this is subject to change at any time, always. I try to stay in their actual positions. For instance, I won't put Kareem and Wilt together because they both played Center. All in their primes of course.

1st Team:
PG- Magic Johnson
SG- Michael Jordan
SF- Larry Bird
PF- Tim Duncan
C- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Reasons- The team has elite passing at every position, can run the floor effectively through Jordan, Johnson, and Bird, and can score from inside consistently. They'd have elite defense at 3 positions and good team defenders in Magic and Bird. They could do it all.

Second team-
PG- John Stockton
SG- Kobe Bryant
SF- LeBron James
PF- Karl Malone
C- Wilt Chamberlain

Reasons- Basically I went with 4 super athletes and the PG that could find them all. It was a tough call between Wilt and Shaq in their primes. They were both so dominant. I went with Wilt because he had better stamina and I imagine this team running the floor a LOT. Defensively they'd be mostly about speed, but you've still got Wilt back there to block shots. Offensively the ball movement would be fantastic and of course you've got the two highest scoring totals in the league on this team in Kobe and Wilt (technically 3 highest because Wilt is 3rd).

3rd Team:

PG- Oscar Robertson
SG- Jerry West
SF- Julius Irving
PF- Kevin Garnett
C- Shaquille O'Neal

Reasons- The first two are fairly obvious with some names coming up but none blowing me away (Maravich was closest). Julius was kind of hard to land on, but he was so explosive that I had to go with him (Hayes came close as did Havlicek and Baylor). Garnett was fairly easy to land on over Barkley and Pettit. And O'Neal edges out Hakeem in his prime. I'm sorry, but Shaq in his prime was just plain dominant. Shaq was the closest thing to Wilt Chamberlain before he got fat and lazy.
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby strikemode14 on Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:23 am

I am noticing a interesting theme which I will address later on.

1. Michael Jordan- Really honestly don't need to explain so I will move on.

2. Kareem- Once again not too much debate on this one as well.

3. Magic Johnson- There is some debate as some may have a russell or a wilt here. Magic career was short but he was a super lebron for his generation. He could play 1 thru 5 and it can be argued as a PG he had his greatest game as a center. To go in and not only play C in a game 7 against the celtics you are also replacing kareem..and drop like 42 and 15 is amazing. If this happens in todays NBA this is legendary. Plus he would be pretty awesome in any generation.

4. shaq- This is the part I know there will be disagreement. I look at the other bigs...wilt, russell, hakeem, duncan etc. shaq was just an unstoppable force. he was the biggest and baddest big in the biggest and most physical era in nba history. His only draw back was his FT shooting and a time questionable work ethic.

5. Bill russell- I couldn't leave the nba's greatest winner out of the top 5 even though he is a celtic lol

6. Wilt chamberlain- He set the bar for big man. He was just an unstoppable force in a crazy era.

7. Tim duncan- Mr. consistency. He could do all the things you need a big man to do.

8. Kobe bryant- I wish I could put him higher but think 8 is a good spot.

9. Larry Bird- Larry legend easy choice.
10. Hakeem- He was a great big man.

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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby John3:16 on Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:57 pm

Luke, Samaki, Smush, Devean George, and chucky Atkins are my top 5.

No particular order
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby Rooscooter on Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:31 pm

strikemode14 wrote:I am noticing a interesting theme which I will address later on.

1. Michael Jordan- Really honestly don't need to explain so I will move on.

2. Kareem- Once again not too much debate on this one as well.

3. Magic Johnson- There is some debate as some may have a russell or a wilt here. Magic career was short but he was a super lebron for his generation. He could play 1 thru 5 and it can be argued as a PG he had his greatest game as a center. To go in and not only play C in a game 7 against the celtics you are also replacing kareem..and drop like 42 and 15 is amazing. If this happens in todays NBA this is legendary. Plus he would be pretty awesome in any generation.

4. shaq- This is the part I know there will be disagreement. I look at the other bigs...wilt, russell, hakeem, duncan etc. shaq was just an unstoppable force. he was the biggest and baddest big in the biggest and most physical era in nba history. His only draw back was his FT shooting and a time questionable work ethic.

5. Bill russell- I couldn't leave the nba's greatest winner out of the top 5 even though he is a celtic lol

6. Wilt chamberlain- He set the bar for big man. He was just an unstoppable force in a crazy era.

7. Tim duncan- Mr. consistency. He could do all the things you need a big man to do.

8. Kobe bryant- I wish I could put him higher but think 8 is a good spot.

9. Larry Bird- Larry legend easy choice.
10. Hakeem- He was a great big man.

1


Interesting that you only picked (with two exceptions) players from the last 30 years yet you equate Magic's abilities to his time.

Pettit, Maravich, Robertson, Baylor, Mikan all dominated similarly in their times and innovated/elevated the game at the same time.

My issue with Shaq is that he wasted more talent than most have..... also when you cannot close out a game for your team when they need it because you have a massive hole in the fundamental part of your game you can't be at the top IMHO. He had to play with closers to sniff a championship... which seems to be the metric for these lists...
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby Finwë on Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:55 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:I think Steve Nash has to be in any top 10 "most skilled" list. As a matter of fact, I would say that he just might be the most skilled player ever given his limited raw tools. I mean he was the very definition of pure skill. Anything he did, he had to out skill and out think you because he sure as heck wasn't going to out jump, out run or out quick anyone.

Your conventional top 10 is very close to mine.

It's not just a "most skilled" list. It's a list of players that have gone long ways in mastering the game and that have changed the game.
I LOVE Steve Nash as a player. I do agree that he's one of the most skilled players in the history of the league, offensively. That's the problem though: mastering the game is also about D. And while Nash's problems on D have a lot to do with his lack of athleticism, he's just not that good at it as Stockton was, who wasn't that athletic either. That's why I put Stockton in there instead of Nash. Nash goes a little lower IMO because of his D.
Last edited by Finwë on Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby Finwë on Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:06 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Spoiler:
I've never really believed in a Greatest of All-Time. Ever since I saw the idea of a "Greatest Starting Five" I've really appreciated that more. Obviously this is subject to change at any time, always. I try to stay in their actual positions. For instance, I won't put Kareem and Wilt together because they both played Center. All in their primes of course.

1st Team:
PG- Magic Johnson
SG- Michael Jordan
SF- Larry Bird
PF- Tim Duncan
C- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Reasons- The team has elite passing at every position, can run the floor effectively through Jordan, Johnson, and Bird, and can score from inside consistently. They'd have elite defense at 3 positions and good team defenders in Magic and Bird. They could do it all.

Second team-
PG- John Stockton
SG- Kobe Bryant
SF- LeBron James
PF- Karl Malone
C- Wilt Chamberlain

Reasons- Basically I went with 4 super athletes and the PG that could find them all. It was a tough call between Wilt and Shaq in their primes. They were both so dominant. I went with Wilt because he had better stamina and I imagine this team running the floor a LOT. Defensively they'd be mostly about speed, but you've still got Wilt back there to block shots. Offensively the ball movement would be fantastic and of course you've got the two highest scoring totals in the league on this team in Kobe and Wilt (technically 3 highest because Wilt is 3rd).

3rd Team:

PG- Oscar Robertson
SG- Jerry West
SF- Julius Irving
PF- Kevin Garnett
C- Shaquille O'Neal

Reasons- The first two are fairly obvious with some names coming up but none blowing me away (Maravich was closest). Julius was kind of hard to land on, but he was so explosive that I had to go with him (Hayes came close as did Havlicek and Baylor). Garnett was fairly easy to land on over Barkley and Pettit. And O'Neal edges out Hakeem in his prime. I'm sorry, but Shaq in his prime was just plain dominant. Shaq was the closest thing to Wilt Chamberlain before he got fat and lazy.

That's another great way of looking at it Real. Good post.
If we're talking classical lineups, then it's tough to argue with your selections.
The only things I'd change are:
-Hakeem as the PF of one of the first 2 teams (him and Duncan are on the same level IMO; Duncan usually get's the edge as the most consistent, but you could make the case that Hakeem was the most dominant in their peaks). That'd leave Garnett out as Malone becomes the PF of the 3rd team.
I know people say that Hakeem was a Center, but I think his natural position (or at least as natural as playing center) was PF.
-I'd consider Baylor instead of Dr J, but it's very close, it could go either way.
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby therealdeal on Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:09 pm

I really wanted to put Hakeem in there, but I had to stay true to my rule of keeping guys in the positions they played. If I didn't have that rule, I most definitely would have him in there.
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby noobiew on Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:15 pm

1) Michael Jordan
2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3) Magic Johnson
4) Wilt Chamberlain
5) Bill Russell
6) Kobe Bryant
7) Tim Duncan
8) Shaquille O'neal
9) Larry Bird
10) Lebron James

Top 3 is pretty much self-explanatory and will not changed, Michael Jordan is just the GOAT and greatest player ever to lace them up, Kareem couldn't be stopped and had a godlike longevity, Magic is the best PG ever, you would never see any other player passed the ball like him, he truly changed the game and redefined what it meant to be a PG.

Wilt has to be in the top 5, the numbers he put up is legendary and will never able to be duplicated by any other players, Russell was never too great as an offensive player and his team was stacked in a limited era, but I respect him for amassing the pile of the rings and such a successful career he had.

Kobe, Duncan and Shaq are interchangeable in my eyes for 6th,7th and 8th spot.

I have Larry Bird at 9th, as great as he was, he below par (by his standards) playoffs performances and his lack of longevity count against him.

I am torn between Lebron James or Hakeem Olajuwon for the last spot, but with Lebron finished the 2012/2013 season with his 2nd championship ring, he rounds out my list.

Nevertheless speaking I respect Hakeem more than someone who pssd his way by joining force and teaming with the two best of the best in order to get an east ride to the titles lol.
Last edited by noobiew on Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby Finwë on Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:17 pm

therealdeal wrote:I really wanted to put Hakeem in there, but I had to stay true to my rule of keeping guys in the positions they played. If I didn't have that rule, I most definitely would have him in there.

That was my point though, he also played PF, and some people (Reggie Miller for example, in an "all-time draft" video) say that PF was his natural position.
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby therealdeal on Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:01 pm

He played Center when he was in his prime though and that's what I went with. In the end it's really splitting hairs. I think he with that last team at PF wouldn't be able to do as much as he's able. He'd be more suited to a fourth team probably.
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Re: Top 10 GOAT?

Postby Rooscooter on Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:23 pm

Hakeem was always a Center regardless what the position by his name was. Sampson played away from the basket, faced up and was much better without the ball. He played the PF position in that offense.
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