Underrated All Time Greats

Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby therealdeal on Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:52 am

dj vitus wrote:
LTLakerFan wrote:Wow maybe it's just my memory or maybe others that can recall their battles can chime in, but I seem to recall and mentioned it just yesterday that I thought he gave Kareem all he could handle in their primes and then some. He was more physical than Kareem was and seemed to me to get the better of him some times. If you remember clearly and those were simply times that Kareem wasn't at 100% due to injury, I can't argue....just going on general remembered impressions.

Oh yeah, you're definitely right. Walton was a beast on defense, and he did irritate Kareem in some games to the point where he even matched his scoring. But most other games when Kareem remained calm and focused, he would drop 30 or 40 on Walton and the Portland defense like nobody's business. I give Walton credit for his defense and for beasting during an unfortunately short-lived career.

Put it this way, if we're ranking based on playground pickup games at the height of everyone's primes, then yes, Walton was one of the best ever. But I like to think of "All-Time Great" in an NBA context as someone with a more storied resume.

Then you're tough. The guy is a two time Champion, a Finals MVP, a 6th man of the year, a 2 time All-Star, and he's got a 1st and 2nd All-NBA selection. That's quite a resume and if he was able to stay healthy throughout his career, I think you'd see a lot more of accolades to boot.
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby c.Lin on Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:30 am

I'm not sure how he ranks as an all-time great, but Kevin Johnson was definitely one of the most spectacular guards I saw during my childhood, and definitely underrated.

Anyone remember this?



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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby gcclaker on Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:45 am

dj vitus wrote:
LTLakerFan wrote:Wow maybe it's just my memory or maybe others that can recall their battles can chime in, but I seem to recall and mentioned it just yesterday that I thought he gave Kareem all he could handle in their primes and then some. He was more physical than Kareem was and seemed to me to get the better of him some times. If you remember clearly and those were simply times that Kareem wasn't at 100% due to injury, I can't argue....just going on general remembered impressions.

Oh yeah, you're definitely right. Walton was a beast on defense, and he did irritate Kareem in some games to the point where he even matched his scoring. But most other games when Kareem remained calm and focused, he would drop 30 or 40 on Walton and the Portland defense like nobody's business. I give Walton credit for his defense and for beasting during an unfortunately short-lived career.

Put it this way, if we're ranking based on playground pickup games at the height of everyone's primes, then yes, Walton was one of the best ever. But I like to think of "All-Time Great" in an NBA context as someone with a more storied resume.

Walton's Portland team swept Abdul-Jabbar and the Lakers in 1977.... The headline screamed "Walton outduels Jabbar!' even though the former averaged 33 points, 15 boards, 3 blocks in the series. Walton did play a good all around game in the series yet SOMEHOW left out were the facts that the Blazer guards were much faster, better than their Laker counterparts and the impressive duo of Don Ford/Tom Abernathy had to deal with Maurice Lucas.

Walton was indeed no slouch... Great passer from the post, excellent timing on defense and could board like no one's business. Ramsay ran his offense through him with great results. They could conceivably repeated in 1978 had Walton not broken his foot.
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby gcclaker on Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:48 am

David Thompson the original "Skywalker"... Smooth J, competed with Erving in the first ABA dunk contest. Micheal Ray Richardson...big guard that could score and pass with equal capability along with being a strong defender until the powder got him.
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:44 am

therealdeal wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
therealdeal wrote:World Free... I loved watching him shoot the ball. That weird looking balding head and his propensity for kicking his body around acrobatically. Definitely a fun player.


Free had a 40"+ vertical and he used about 36" of it on every jump shot..... he could literally shoot a jumper with someone right in his face with that jumping ability and that release point behind his head.....

He was another one that got stuck on crap teams..... not a true all time great at any particular aspect of the game but a formidable player in his day and a true character of the game..... his fashion "sense" was second to none........ :man12:

I googled World B. Free just to get a look at him again and came across this:
Spoiler:
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:man10: :man10: ........ Maybe we've found who LeBron's father really is...... looks just like "Free" in the day....
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby Juronimo on Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:13 pm

gcclaker wrote:When people talk 4s, it's always about the Duncans and the Malones...and Kevin McHale is NEVER mentioned. I hated him for WHERE he played but damn he could score in so many ways and was an excellent defender both one on one as well as help. Big Lurch was a hell of a baller...


Yep, Lurch was underrated. I remember having a debate with a fellow Laker fan friend of mine about who was better, Lurch or Big Game James and I had to argue that Lurch was better. He was amazing in the post, incredibly skilled, solid defensively and like all of those guys had a mean streak in him.

Oh and I can't think of any of those guys I hated more than Frankenstein. Remember when he got hecked at Disneyland?
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby gcclaker on Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:22 pm

Juronimo wrote:
gcclaker wrote:When people talk 4s, it's always about the Duncans and the Malones...and Kevin McHale is NEVER mentioned. I hated him for WHERE he played but damn he could score in so many ways and was an excellent defender both one on one as well as help. Big Lurch was a hell of a baller...

Yep, Lurch was underrated. I remember having a debate with a fellow Laker fan friend of mine about who was better, Lurch or Big Game James and I had to argue that Lurch was better. He was amazing in the post, incredibly skilled, solid defensively and like all of those guys had a mean streak in him.

Oh and I can't think of any of those guys I hated more than Frankenstein. Remember when he got heckled at Disneyland?

I don't remember reading about the Disneyland incident. That is funny though. Robert Parish was a solid center too. He had that long armed, high arching shot that was practically unblockable.
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby therealdeal on Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:45 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
therealdeal wrote:World Free... I loved watching him shoot the ball. That weird looking balding head and his propensity for kicking his body around acrobatically. Definitely a fun player.


Free had a 40"+ vertical and he used about 36" of it on every jump shot..... he could literally shoot a jumper with someone right in his face with that jumping ability and that release point behind his head.....

He was another one that got stuck on crap teams..... not a true all time great at any particular aspect of the game but a formidable player in his day and a true character of the game..... his fashion "sense" was second to none........ :man12:

I googled World B. Free just to get a look at him again and came across this:
Spoiler:
Image


:man10: :man10: ........ Maybe we've found who LeBron's father really is...... looks just like "Free" in the day....

That would explain why he's so athletic. :man10:
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby LakerFanIam on Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:54 pm

Surprisingly, you don't hear George Gervin mentioned that often. He was a beast on offense & had a career average of 26+ppg. The IceMan gets my vote.
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:01 pm

LakerFanIam wrote:Surprisingly, you don't hear George Gervin mentioned that often. He was a beast on offense & had a career average of 26+ppg. The IceMan gets my vote.


Gervin was amazing on the offensive end..... he always looked a step slow and somewhat gangly for his day but he could just "glide" by any defender and flip the ball in..... He was the master at getting a shot off in the lane....

He has got to have one of the higher points per minute rate in league history I would guess. He also shot a fairly high percentage as well..... especially for a wing player.
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby John3:16 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:18 pm

jimbo327 wrote:Isiah Thomas was probably one of the best small guards I've ever seen play. But in the era of Magic,Bird and Jordan, I think he doesn't get enough credit. Also got left off the Dream Team.

Terrible GM though, LOL.


Isiah has to be included in the top 10 toughest SOBs to ever play the game. Fearless. Tough! Tough! Tough!

I don't know what Jordan's problem was with Isiah. I remember him saying Isiah and Magic froze him out of the All Star Game. Well, what was Magic supposed to do? He was on the other team. :man10: Not sure what Isiah did, but I assume anything less then bowing to Mike Almighty cost Isiah his rightful place on the Dream Team. The Olympic committee should've called Jordan's bluff and said he could stay home. They were going without him. Think he'd stay home? I don't. Anyway, you're right Jimbo. Isiah is the epitome of dominating small guard who could do it all.
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby Phil XI on Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:11 pm

Time for some "old fogie" input.
Underrated now, but not when they played, in my opinion were -
Elvin Hayes - pure dominant scorer-rebounder in a very hard era to do it
Walt Fazier - the best defensive PG I've ever seen, including GP and Kidd
Dave Bing - one of the original combo-guards
Billy C - loved his athleticism

Yes on some of the others here, Gervin, Barry, Moses, Hondo, McGinnis, Issel, King

Some even further down the ladder who were sweet -
Nate Thurmond
Hal Greer
Bobby Jones

And even further down who had great skills -
Randy Smith
Jojo White
Moe Lucas
Bobby Dandridge
Phil Smith
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby gcclaker on Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:52 pm

...when I think "underrated" it is usually players who are consistent sans the style points, the flash and outrageous on/off the floor character. Here's a couple more:

Jamaal Wilkes
Buck Williams

I've always loved Erving's quote on Wilkes..."He had 27 points without you realizing it." Williams just worked over players in the paint. A man's man on the floor.
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby 432J on Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:08 pm

Hakeem Olajuwon

when people talk about all time great centers it's always wilt, kareem, shaq, and russell. but you rarely see olajuwon's name pop up anymore. i have him in my top 5 for sure, people forget how good he really was, just watch the 1995 finals where he pretty much dominated shaq. so much fun to watch him play
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby John3:16 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:35 pm

432J wrote:Hakeem Olajuwon

when people talk about all time great centers it's always wilt, kareem, shaq, and russell. but you rarely see olajuwon's name pop up anymore. i have him in my top 5 for sure, people forget how good he really was, just watch the 1995 finals where he pretty much dominated shaq. so much fun to watch him play


Definitely a great player, but I don't think he's underrated. He's right where he should be, IMO.

Also, I don't think he dominated Shaq.

PPG: 32.8 for Hakeem to 28 for Shaq (Hakeem took 42 more shots in 4 games to get those extra 5 points ppg)
FG%: .595 for Shaq to .483 for Hakeem
RPG: 12.5 for Shaq to 11.5 for Hakeem
AST: 6.3 for Shaq to 5.5. for Hakeem
Blocks: 2.5 for Shaq to 2.0 for Hakeem

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1995_finals.html
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:59 pm

Phil XI wrote:Time for some "old fogie" input.
Underrated now, but not when they played, in my opinion were -
Elvin Hayes - pure dominant scorer-rebounder in a very hard era to do it
Walt Fazier - the best defensive PG I've ever seen, including GP and Kidd
Dave Bing - one of the original combo-guards
Billy C - loved his athleticism

Yes on some of the others here, Gervin, Barry, Moses, Hondo, McGinnis, Issel, King

Some even further down the ladder who were sweet -
Nate Thurmond
Hal Greer
Bobby Jones

And even further down who had great skills -
Randy Smith
Jojo White
Moe Lucas
Bobby Dandridge
Phil Smith


The big "E"..... how could I forget him?...... :bang: He was a wrecking ball inside....

John Drew was fantastic scorer at the SF position for Atlanta in the late 70's to early 80's..... Coke derailed his promising career before he could put up serious career numbers. He was the first "life time ban" for drugs in the NBA I believe...... 10 years averaging 20 and 7 as a SF.
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:01 pm

432J wrote:Hakeem Olajuwon

when people talk about all time great centers it's always wilt, kareem, shaq, and russell. but you rarely see olajuwon's name pop up anymore. i have him in my top 5 for sure, people forget how good he really was, just watch the 1995 finals where he pretty much dominated shaq. so much fun to watch him play


Hakeem grew into an all time great that's for sure...... I think he'd rank higher if it wasn't for his first few years where he was still learning the game and was terribly inconsistent.

He was one of the top 5 centers I ever saw play.....
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby John3:16 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:04 pm

Rooscooter wrote:John Drew was fantastic scorer at the SF position for Atlanta in the late 70's to early 80's..... Coke derailed his promising career before he could put up serious career numbers. He was the first "life time ban" for drugs in the NBA I believe...... 10 years averaging 20 and 7 as a SF.


He was also a nationally ranked (top 10 I believe) tennis player in HS.
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby LTLakerFan on Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:10 am

If it's possible for someone considered a "legend" in the league to be underrated then I would have to include Elgin Baylor. Others are much quicker and more efficient than me at pulling up the :man4: statistics from a career like his, highlights and all. The guy was a monster on the boards alone, at only 6'5", in addition to his scoring back in the day and his being the first NBA player to introduce "hang time" to the lexicon of the sport and the improvisation of his shots as needed. Plus he had that "tick" thing with his head going when he brought the ball up the floor to confuse the opposition..... :man12: :man10:
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:30 am

LTLakerFan wrote:If it's possible for someone considered a "legend" in the league to be underrated then I would have to include Elgin Baylor. Others are much quicker and more efficient than me at pulling up the :man4: statistics from a career like his, highlights and all. The guy was a monster on the boards alone, at only 6'5", in addition to his scoring back in the day and his being the first NBA player to introduce "hang time" to the lexicon of the sport and the improvisation of his shots as needed. Plus he had that "tick" thing with his head going when he brought the ball up the floor to confuse the opposition..... :man12: :man10:


To me, Baylor was a lot like Maravich in that he revolutionized the position in his time. He was the Kobe of the 60's.... he could outscore anyone not named Wilt and attacked the basket which no one really did back then. He always seems to get overlooked in the GOAT discussions because he didn't win a championship..... I don't think he's the GOAT but his accomplishments in his time are every bit as relevant as Jordan's in his time..... All he had to do was stick it out another 7 months and he would have had the same number of Championships as Jerry West.....
Last edited by Rooscooter on Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby TIME on Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:45 am

Phil XI wrote:Time for some "old fogie" input.

Bobby Jones



Some great posts in this thread.

Bobby Jones just may be the most underrated player of all time. Since defense is often overlooked and he was he was all about defense.
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby LTLakerFan on Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:51 am

I guess so..... Who??
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby gcclaker on Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:54 am

TIME wrote:
Phil XI wrote:Time for some "old fogie" input.

Bobby Jones

Some great posts in this thread.

Bobby Jones just may be the most underrated player of all time. Since defense is often overlooked and he was he was all about defense.

Jones was a terror with those early to mid-80's Sixer squads. He could run the floor and finish with either hand. In the 1982 Finals, he frustrated Wilkes to the point where the normally cool Laker forward took a swing at him with the ball.

Dennis Johnson...other than Cooper probably the best one on one defensive "big" guard that played and could score too.
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby LTLakerFan on Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:57 am

Rooscooter wrote:
LTLakerFan wrote:If it's possible for someone considered a "legend" in the league to be underrated then I would have to include Elgin Baylor. Others are much quicker and more efficient than me at pulling up the :man4: statistics from a career like his, highlights and all. The guy was a monster on the boards alone, at only 6'5", in addition to his scoring back in the day and his being the first NBA player to introduce "hang time" to the lexicon of the sport and the improvisation of his shots as needed. Plus he had that "tick" thing with his head going when he brought the ball up the floor to confuse the opposition..... :man12: :man10:


To me, Baylor was a lot like Maravich in that he revolutionized the position in his time. He was the Kobe of the 60's.... he could outscore anyone not named Wilt and attached the basket which no one really did back then. He always seems to get overlooked in the GOAT discussions because he didn't win a championship..... I don't think he's the GOAT but his accomplishments in his time are every bit as relevant as Jordan's in his time..... All he had to do was stick it out another 7 months and he would have had the same number of Championships as Jerry West.....


He really deserves a statue. He was 1A and West 1B. Unfortunately his career after his playing years had nowhere near the success or luster of Magic's or Jerry's and didn't have their ongoing long professional relations with the Lakers, instead the long one with the Clippers only made things worse. Stench of Sterling.
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Re: Underrated All Time Greats

Postby Phil XI on Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:09 pm

Baylor, from someone who saw him, was Lebron. Too big for the guys his position. Too fast and athletic for the bigger guys they tried to put on him. Could play inside or outside and basically any position when called upon. Could get to the rim ANYTIME on anyone. Could jump out of the gym and control boards. And yes, a statue is deserved.
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