C Butler for K Brown according to Vecsey in the NY Post

Postby Jordan-esque on Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:54 pm

they_perch had a little intersting analysis about Caron and Kwame...

they_perch wrote:Kwame's stats:

7.0 pts, 4.9 rebounds, and 0.36 bpg.

Butler's stats:

15.5 pts, 5.8 rebounds, and 0.30 bpg.


and although Butler averaged a little over 10 more minutes per game, he outscored, outrebounded, and nearly matched Kwame's bpg. that is absurd. terrible terrible deal. why would we trade for another project bigman, we have bynum.

i'd rather hold onto butler and let him develop, elevated trade value that we can dump at the deadline.


If a SF from the "big men dominated West" can outrebound and outblock a PF from the "smaller East"... then why bother?

Heck, we can just probably put Butler on the 4-spot, and he might even do a better job than Brown. :man10:

Kidding aside, there has to be more to offer than a straight up deal for Caron and Kwame for Mitch to pull the trigger.
Last edited by Jordan-esque on Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby JSM on Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:54 pm

sky_hook wrote:What has Kwame Brown done in this league.

Oooh...I know...I know.

He took himself out of what would have easily been his career game, in the second quarter, because he was tired. He had the best 1 1/2 quarters of his life, but couldn't handle it and had to go sit down.

Let's see what else...oh yeah. He managed to get sent home by his team in the playoffs.

Way to go Kwame!
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Postby mojoballer on Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:57 pm

If we get another player (Dixon, Blatche, Blake) - I LIKE THIS TRADE.

It's funny how so many of you like to bash Caron and says he sucks and doesn't play any D - then turn around and say he's too VALUABLE when we offer him in a trade.

Personally, I've never thought Caron's D was ever that bad. The whole TEAM'S D was bad, so it was hard to pass judgement on him based on last year. I actually like Caron a lot.

But decent SF's are a dime a dozen. Caron will never become a superstar. He might become a VERY good SF. Those are available in the draft every year. Look at this year, Granger at 17, Green at 18. And those two could eventually be better than Caron.

Big's are rare. When you have a chance to get a young big with potential for a guy you're PROJECTING TO COME OFF YOUR BENCH - you gotta do it.

As for saving Caron for other big man trades - what other trades are there? Everyone keeps saying Magloire, but is that realistic? That's prob as realistic as the Bender trade was.
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Postby JSM on Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:58 pm

1 x Butler x 1 wrote:
GuRu wrote:Caron for Kwame?

:hurl:


-Can we please show journalists the respect they deserve. Peter Vescey writes for a very respected newspaper and I don't think he deserves to be degraded because of some trades he predicted that didn't happen. I know a couple of "insiders" that have the CL MoBerators behing them so they hear nothing. Please show him the respect you show emplay, Lionel, etc.

Obviously you still carry a grudge over those stats that Guru posted in the Caron thread.

Come on, Peter is a second rate tabloid writer. And it's not the more respected paper in NY.

Peter's rumor mill is about as accurate as Shaq Fan's.
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Postby Jordan-esque on Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:02 pm

jsm0331 wrote:
1 x Butler x 1 wrote:
GuRu wrote:Caron for Kwame?

:hurl:


-Can we please show journalists the respect they deserve. Peter Vescey writes for a very respected newspaper and I don't think he deserves to be degraded because of some trades he predicted that didn't happen. I know a couple of "insiders" that have the CL MoBerators behing them so they hear nothing. Please show him the respect you show emplay, Lionel, etc.

Obviously you still carry a grudge over those stats that Guru posted in the Caron thread.

Come on, Peter is a second rate tabloid writer. And it's not the more respected paper in NY.

Peter's rumor mill is about as accurate as Shaq Fan's.


Peter Vescey seems to have a 5% accuracy rate on his rumors.

Meaning for every 20 rumors he puts out... there's at least 1 that comes true.
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Postby JSM on Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:03 pm

mojoballer wrote:If we get another player (Dixon, Blatche, Blake) - I LIKE THIS TRADE.

It's funny how so many of you like to bash Caron and says he sucks and doesn't play any D - then turn around and say he's too VALUABLE when we offer him in a trade.

Caron would be a perfect fit for the Suns. He is all offense and no defense. His D is horrible, but his offense alone is worth more than Kwame. He is valuable, because he is still labeled with the "P" (potential) word and has a contract that is coming to an end.
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Postby mojoballer on Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:08 pm

jsm0331 wrote:Caron would be a perfect fit for the Suns. He is all offense and no defense. His D is horrible, but his offense alone is worth more than Kwame.


It's hard to say. When Caron was with the Heat, I thought his D was decent. Based on last year, the whole teams D sucked - including Kobe's. And since we know Kobe was a perennial first team ALL-D selection, it's hard to judge Caron when the whole team had no defensive concept.


jsm0331 wrote:He is valuable, because he is still labeled with the "P" (potential) word and has a contract that is coming to an end.


Yeah, but you could say the same thing about Kwame. I think Kwame has as much potential as Caron - and since his potential comes in a 7 foot package, I think it's a little more valuable.
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Postby Frank The Tank on Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:12 pm

I really find it hard to believe that Mitch would actually make this trade. He has been working so hard to get as much value as he can for Caron i dont think hes just gonna throw him away for kwame Brown. Thats a bad move. I mean look at what the other teams are offering compaired to us. James Posey? I think this might just be Mitch trying to light a fire under other teams that might be interested in Caron to make them give us what we want.
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Postby mojoballer on Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:20 pm

Lakerman91 wrote:I really find it hard to believe that Mitch would actually make this trade. He has been working so hard to get as much value as he can for Caron i dont think hes just gonna throw him away for kwame Brown. Thats a bad move. I mean look at what the other teams are offering compaired to us. James Posey? I think this might just be Mitch trying to light a fire under other teams that might be interested in Caron to make them give us what we want.


Yeah, seeing what the other teams offered makes me think that Caron and Kwame are only the centerpieces. There would HAVE to be more added on Washington's side to even out the trade.

Still think it's a good trade though - depending on who else is involved.
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Postby Jordan-esque on Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:42 pm

Lakerman91 wrote:I really find it hard to believe that Mitch would actually make this trade. He has been working so hard to get as much value as he can for Caron i dont think hes just gonna throw him away for kwame Brown. Thats a bad move. I mean look at what the other teams are offering compaired to us. James Posey? I think this might just be Mitch trying to light a fire under other teams that might be interested in Caron to make them give us what we want.


Agreed.

You could practically say that we basically went from trading...

Caron Butler for Carlos Boozer

to

Caron Butler for Kwame Brown

That's just a huge, huge drop - a big downgrade. LIke I said Washington better have another player they'd package with Kwame before Mitch (I hope) even pulls this deal.
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Postby GCMD on Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:11 pm

abeer3 wrote:i'm warming to this idea as i think about it. washington would have to add another player of some value, though, i'd like jarvis hayes, dixon, or even steve blake. i think they might be willing to give up at least one of those in addition to kwame for butler and vlade's contract.


I keep thinking Dixon would like to come to LAL...as a backup PG, he'd be great because he's a good defender, good shooter and he's quick...

Caron/Vlade/Chucky for Kwame/Dixon


They get their SG/SF...we get our PF/C...we both exchange backup PGs...throw in Vlade (or not) to sign these guys to ok salaries...

WAS would likely add a future pick for the buyout from Vlade...
Feel free to ignore anything I say...

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Postby GCMD on Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:17 pm

Lakerman91 wrote:I really find it hard to believe that Mitch would actually make this trade. He has been working so hard to get as much value as he can for Caron i dont think hes just gonna throw him away for kwame Brown. Thats a bad move. I mean look at what the other teams are offering compaired to us. James Posey? I think this might just be Mitch trying to light a fire under other teams that might be interested in Caron to make them give us what we want.



That's highly possible...Kwame is probably the contingent plan which is why it's such public knowledge....

Not a bad plan B...

I see this as one of those plans that clears roster spots as an added incentive...
Feel free to ignore anything I say...

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Postby trips on Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:37 pm

Obviously whatever laker's management had in mind ain't going through,
so now they resort to their back-up plans which are probably being written along the way.

Caron 4 Kwame? I'm game.

But only if we get something more in return

Also just a thought but this might keep daniels off their wishlist, since they lost hughes; they would play butler as 2-guard if this trade went down and not pursue AD.
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Postby Savage1 on Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:11 pm

mojoballer wrote:If we get another player (Dixon, Blatche, Blake) - I LIKE THIS TRADE.

It's funny how so many of you like to bash Caron and says he sucks and doesn't play any D - then turn around and say he's too VALUABLE when we offer him in a trade.

Personally, I've never thought Caron's D was ever that bad. The whole TEAM'S D was bad, so it was hard to pass judgement on him based on last year. I actually like Caron a lot.

But decent SF's are a dime a dozen. Caron will never become a superstar. He might become a VERY good SF. Those are available in the draft every year. Look at this year, Granger at 17, Green at 18. And those two could eventually be better than Caron.

Big's are rare. When you have a chance to get a young big with potential for a guy you're PROJECTING TO COME OFF YOUR BENCH - you gotta do it.

As for saving Caron for other big man trades - what other trades are there? Everyone keeps saying Magloire, but is that realistic? That's prob as realistic as the Bender trade was.


Very well put!
Good point about small forwards being a dime a dozen.
The part about Magloire...I haven't seen a real rumor about the Lakers being involved, although they should be if they aren't. It seemed to start with the talk of Magloire to the Raps for the 2 picks. Kwame is more of a risk than Magloire but with the money that we have to offer, we have to take a risk and Kwame's as good as any.
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Postby Guest on Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:51 pm

i'd do it... face it if we keep caron he's probably gonna hurt our cap situation cuz teams will throw their cap space at him next summer. im pretty sure mitch and buss wont want to hinder their chances of landing an all-star caliber player to waste on a backup small forward like caron... i like caron and i'd defend his playing abilities to the end, but....

kawme, no matter what kind of stats he put up in WAS the kid is 7' 260lbs. that would leave us with 3 7 footers... in a deep big man rotation we'd have the size that we need to compete in this league... 3 big ahletic big men... yes caron can score and possibly one day defend, but... how much is it going to cost us?

we can get more size and probably some quality defesnse out of this deal. we'd also be able to remove some of our dead weight.. and we'd still have the MLE and the LLE to get some better players, after its all said and done.

i say pull the trigger.

only reason i see us keeping caron is to sign him for a big contract and trade him for a better player next summer, we'll just have to see what happens in the next 3 months.
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Postby LakerLove on Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:24 pm

long time lurkerr....first post, allthough i feel caron is an asset to our team, i feel he might demand too much money. even though hes friends with kobe as all of you know money can break friendships. i think kwame needs a second chance and has potential for the future under phils toolage, allthough i wouldnt do this deal straight up. if we get something else with him i pull the trigger.
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Postby Guest on Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:26 pm

all year we have said Chucky would be great off the bench. So would caron. The teams with legit guys coming off bench are the guys that win.. Period. .........I said period.
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Postby mojoballer on Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:38 pm

wingnut wrote:all year we have said Chucky would be great off the bench. So would caron. The teams with legit guys coming off bench are the guys that win.. Period. .........I said period.


Agreed. As much as I hate Chucky as our starting PG, I've always thought he would be great as in instant offense bench guy.

But if we're all enamored with Caron's potential, what about Kwame's potential?

If both are equal, I'd take the 7 footer with potential.
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Postby jminges on Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:44 pm

ONLY IF WE GET A FIRST ROUND PICK AND THEY TAKE GRANT'S CONTRACT
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Postby GCMD on Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:49 pm

wingnut wrote:all year we have said Chucky would be great off the bench. So would caron. The teams with legit guys coming off bench are the guys that win.. Period. .........I said period.


Those teams usually have a solid starting rotation TOO...something we don't have at this point...

You can get by with specialists coming off the bench but you can't expect to win without a starter quality player at 1 or 2 positions...

Fill in starters, then worry about the bench...
Feel free to ignore anything I say...

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Postby lakerfool on Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:54 pm

I'll propose this again

Caron + Slava + Sasha (or future 2nd rounder)

for

Kwame + Dixon (or Jared Jeffries)
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Postby jminges on Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:12 pm

Assuming the Wizards match a large offer for a base year around $10 M (over five years).

LOS ANGELES

Kwame Brown
6-11 C from Glynn Academy
7.0 ppg, 4.90 rpg, .9 apg in 21.6 minutes
Etan Thomas
6-10 PF from Syracuse
7.1 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 0.4 apg in 20.8 minutes
Jared Jeffries
6-11 SF from Indiana
6.8 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 2.0 apg in 26.1 minutes

WASHINGTON #1 2006

WASHINGTON

Brian Grant
6-9 C from Xavier
3.8 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 0.5 apg in 16.5 minutes
Caron Butler
6-7 SF from Connecticut
15.5 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 1.9 apg in 35.7 minutes
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Postby Xepa on Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:18 pm

jaminges wrote:Assuming the Wizards match a large offer for a base year around $10 M (over five years).

LOS ANGELES

Kwame Brown
6-11 C from Glynn Academy
7.0 ppg, 4.90 rpg, .9 apg in 21.6 minutes
Etan Thomas
6-10 PF from Syracuse
7.1 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 0.4 apg in 20.8 minutes
Jared Jeffries
6-11 SF from Indiana
6.8 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 2.0 apg in 26.1 minutes

WASHINGTON #1 2006

WASHINGTON

Brian Grant
6-9 C from Xavier
3.8 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 0.5 apg in 16.5 minutes
Caron Butler
6-7 SF from Connecticut
15.5 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 1.9 apg in 35.7 minutes


Myabe if we add Kobe they'd do that. Other than that, pipecon 3 fellas.
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Postby lakerfool on Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:19 pm

jaminges wrote:Assuming the Wizards match a large offer for a base year around $10 M (over five years).

LOS ANGELES

Kwame Brown
6-11 C from Glynn Academy
7.0 ppg, 4.90 rpg, .9 apg in 21.6 minutes
Etan Thomas
6-10 PF from Syracuse
7.1 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 0.4 apg in 20.8 minutes
Jared Jeffries
6-11 SF from Indiana
6.8 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 2.0 apg in 26.1 minutes

WASHINGTON #1 2006

WASHINGTON

Brian Grant
6-9 C from Xavier
3.8 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 0.5 apg in 16.5 minutes
Caron Butler
6-7 SF from Connecticut
15.5 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 1.9 apg in 35.7 minutes


They're not THAT desperate to get rid of Kwame Brown :man10:
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Postby jminges on Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:25 pm

I care for Kwame Brown about as much as I care for Brian Grant. The Wizards will be desperate for a shooting guard to replace Hughes after that season they just had - Jamison, Arenas and Haywood together - you're saying they won't trade 3 scrubs for a legit starter on the verge of a breakout season? Brian Grant, under the new CBA has a buyout option.

I find you overvaluing other team's reserves and undervaluing Caron as a legit second option.
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