C Butler for K Brown according to Vecsey in the NY Post

Postby jminges on Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:25 pm

I care for Kwame Brown about as much as I care for Brian Grant. The Wizards will be desperate for a shooting guard to replace Hughes after that season they just had - Jamison, Arenas and Haywood together - you're saying they won't trade 3 scrubs for a legit starter on the verge of a breakout season? Brian Grant, under the new CBA has a buyout option.

I find you overvaluing other team's reserves and undervaluing Caron as a legit second option.
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Postby silversyphon41 on Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:36 am

jsm0331 wrote:
silversyphon41 wrote:
jaminges wrote:Caron Butler and Devean George for Kwame Brown and a first round pick.


Interesting proposal. This would clearly be a trade for the future. Caron can produce right now, but Kwame can't. Kinda like a Jermaine O'Neal idea, when Portland ditched him just before he began to produce. Oh the possibilities. :man1:

The words Kwame and Jermaine should never be used in a comparison. If you chopped of JO's left leg and right arm, he would be more productive than Kwame has ever been.


But what you are saying is based on what you know now, at Jermaine's prime. I don't like Kwame, who has been an unbelievable underachiever, but don't you think that while Jermaine O'Neal was maturing and just beginning to produce, that people would never consider him to be an all star? I am comparing them according to how they progressed in their beginning seasons, not what the current products of each are.

KWAME:
CAREER AVERAGES (through first 4 years)

YEAR G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
01-02 57 3 14.3 .387 .000 .707 1.10 2.40 3.50 .8 .28 .46 .75 1.80 4.5
02-03 80 20 22.2 .446 .000 .668 1.60 3.70 5.30 .7 .63 1.00 1.38 2.00 7.4
03-04 74 57 30.3 .489 .500 .683 2.40 5.00 7.40 1.5 .89 .70 1.89 1.90 10.9
04-05 42 14 21.6 .460 .000 .574 1.70 3.20 4.90 .9 .60 .36 1.60 2.70 7.0

JERMAINE:
CAREER AVEARGES (through first 4 years)

YEAR G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
96-97 45 0 10.2 .451 .000 .603 .90 1.90 2.80 .2 .04 .58 .60 1.00 4.1
97-98 60 9 13.5 .485 .000 .506 1.30 2.00 3.40 .3 .25 .97 .92 1.70 4.5
98-99 36 1 8.6 .434 .000 .514 1.20 1.50 2.70 .4 .11 .39 .39 1.10 2.5
99-00 70 8 12.3 .486 .000 .582 1.40 1.90 3.30 .3 .16 .79 .67 1.80 3.9

Providing 98-99 was a lockout. Jermaine wasn't exactly a star in the beginning. :man1:
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Postby extreme on Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:26 am

TRADE ODOM, NOT BUTLER

Odom is still at the same level as he was drafted, he is useless, OK OK he took rebounds for us this season but @ the frontcourt we are much better this season i think.
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Postby DMK on Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:46 am

silversyphon41 wrote:
jsm0331 wrote:
silversyphon41 wrote:
jaminges wrote:Caron Butler and Devean George for Kwame Brown and a first round pick.


Interesting proposal. This would clearly be a trade for the future. Caron can produce right now, but Kwame can't. Kinda like a Jermaine O'Neal idea, when Portland ditched him just before he began to produce. Oh the possibilities. :man1:

The words Kwame and Jermaine should never be used in a comparison. If you chopped of JO's left leg and right arm, he would be more productive than Kwame has ever been.


But what you are saying is based on what you know now, at Jermaine's prime. I don't like Kwame, who has been an unbelievable underachiever, but don't you think that while Jermaine O'Neal was maturing and just beginning to produce, that people would never consider him to be an all star? I am comparing them according to how they progressed in their beginning seasons, not what the current products of each are.

KWAME:
CAREER AVERAGES (through first 4 years)

YEAR G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
01-02 57 3 14.3 .387 .000 .707 1.10 2.40 3.50 .8 .28 .46 .75 1.80 4.5
02-03 80 20 22.2 .446 .000 .668 1.60 3.70 5.30 .7 .63 1.00 1.38 2.00 7.4
03-04 74 57 30.3 .489 .500 .683 2.40 5.00 7.40 1.5 .89 .70 1.89 1.90 10.9
04-05 42 14 21.6 .460 .000 .574 1.70 3.20 4.90 .9 .60 .36 1.60 2.70 7.0

JERMAINE:
CAREER AVEARGES (through first 4 years)

YEAR G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
96-97 45 0 10.2 .451 .000 .603 .90 1.90 2.80 .2 .04 .58 .60 1.00 4.1
97-98 60 9 13.5 .485 .000 .506 1.30 2.00 3.40 .3 .25 .97 .92 1.70 4.5
98-99 36 1 8.6 .434 .000 .514 1.20 1.50 2.70 .4 .11 .39 .39 1.10 2.5
99-00 70 8 12.3 .486 .000 .582 1.40 1.90 3.30 .3 .16 .79 .67 1.80 3.9

Providing 98-99 was a lockout. Jermaine wasn't exactly a star in the beginning. :man1:


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Postby magic2kb8 on Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:02 am

I would do it with out question...it ads to the lakers depth, and the youth movement....if this stuff pans out lakers could be competitive and good for a long time.
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Postby magic2kb8 on Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:15 am

VerbalMilk wrote:
Kobe is a much better ball handler than Jordan ever was


Actually, Kobe's handles didn't get good until about 2002 or later. MJ had handles coming out of NC, bro. Kobe was ALWAYS a hazard with the rock early on.


I think he means kobe has more abilty with the ball than mike had, he can do more stuff...but mike was less turnover prone....kobe definitely goes left better than mike.
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Postby BGil on Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:08 am

VerbalMilk wrote:
BGil wrote:
VerbalMilk wrote:
DMK wrote:
VerbalMilk wrote:
Kobe is a much better ball handler than Jordan ever was


Actually, Kobe's handles didn't get good until about 2002 or later. MJ had handles coming out of NC, bro. Kobe was ALWAYS a hazard with the rock early on.


:man3: Kobe's handles > MJ's at any point of his career.


Nope. Go back and watch Kobe from 96-01..and see how many ball handling TOs he has. MJ was WAY more polished as a ball handler when he came out of NC, which is understandable since KB came from high school.


No way. Jordan averaged 3.55 TO's a game in his rookie year. And that's when he was being guarded by a bunch of stiffs. Jordan never really had a crossover or killer crossover, no spin moves, behind the back fakes, and had major trouble bringing the ball up against pressure. You can go look at any Kobe games from his rookie year (or the early years) and see a plethra of moves that Jordan never had. Kobe averages a lot of turnovers for the same reason AI does... defenses are much better now and they key on him like no other two guards in the history of the game. Jordan never dealt with defenders like Bowen, Prince, AK47, etc. Even people considered lax defenders in todays game would have been considered very good defenders in Jordan's era... case in point Vince Carter.


We're not talking JUST rookie year here, bro.


That's why I said "You can go look at any Kobe games from his rookie year (or the early years)".


And handles don't mean "spin moves" and "crossovers" as much as it means dribbling and maintaining the rock.


And bringing the ball up against pressure, something Jordan wasn't very good at. Look at the way Kobe handled the ball in the open court (on fast breaks) versus how Jordan did. Jordan was pretty much a finisher and that's it, Kobe could do much more. The ability to use moves like crossovers (any change of direction move) and spin moves while in traffic is one of the primary skills of a PG or ball-handler. Jordan simply wasn't good at those things. He was (to use a football term) "a one gap" player. He set his mind on going in a certian direction and he beat you (if he could), he very rarely changed directions once he got started.

Jordan didn't even really have the abilty to back people down (witness how GP used to bring the ball up against pressure last year). He couldn't even do it in the post. That's why he used his turnaround so much. Go look at the "Kobe 42 points in the first half" video and notice that even with Derek Fisher on him, Jordan was barely able to move except when he choose to do his turnaround.
Go look at the "Kobe Facials" vid and watch Kobe doing massive change of direction moves that Jordan could never do.
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Postby Guest on Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:13 am

magic2kb8 wrote:
VerbalMilk wrote:
Kobe is a much better ball handler than Jordan ever was


Actually, Kobe's handles didn't get good until about 2002 or later. MJ had handles coming out of NC, bro. Kobe was ALWAYS a hazard with the rock early on.


I think he means kobe has more abilty with the ball than mike had, he can do more stuff...but mike was less turnover prone....kobe definitely goes left better than mike.


I don't know if he meant that, but even saying that is suspect. I've seen MJ shake fools out of the gym, so KB isn't the only one with shakes.
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Postby SeVeN on Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:13 am

I'm sold on this trade rumor. I would love to have Kwame. He may have his breakout year this season.

Mihm/Vlade/Bynum
Kwame/Turiaf/Grant
Odom/Jones
Kobe/Sasha
Daniels/Atkins

Solid team.
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Postby Guest on Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:16 am

And bringing the ball up against pressure, something Jordan wasn't very good at. Look at the way Kobe handled the ball in the open court (on fast breaks) versus how Jordan did. Jordan was pretty much a finisher and that's it, Kobe could do much more. The ability to use moves like crossovers (any change of direction move) and spin moves while in traffic is one of the primary skills of a PG or ball-handler. Jordan simply wasn't good at those things


:man4:

And on that note...I'll end this debate.

SMH.
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Postby KB24 on Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:21 am

VerbalMilk wrote:
And bringing the ball up against pressure, something Jordan wasn't very good at. Look at the way Kobe handled the ball in the open court (on fast breaks) versus how Jordan did. Jordan was pretty much a finisher and that's it, Kobe could do much more. The ability to use moves like crossovers (any change of direction move) and spin moves while in traffic is one of the primary skills of a PG or ball-handler. Jordan simply wasn't good at those things


:man4:

And on that note...I'll end this debate.

SMH.

:man10: :man10: :man10: Well Verbal we should recognize that MJ was a 3rd string SG and choked when the game was sent to money time. His suspect handles nearly cost Chicago the title untill Pip took over.
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Postby Guest on Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:40 am

KB8@CL wrote:
VerbalMilk wrote:
And bringing the ball up against pressure, something Jordan wasn't very good at. Look at the way Kobe handled the ball in the open court (on fast breaks) versus how Jordan did. Jordan was pretty much a finisher and that's it, Kobe could do much more. The ability to use moves like crossovers (any change of direction move) and spin moves while in traffic is one of the primary skills of a PG or ball-handler. Jordan simply wasn't good at those things


:man4:

And on that note...I'll end this debate.

SMH.

:man10: :man10: :man10: Well Verbal we should recognize that MJ was a 3rd string SG and choked when the game was sent to money time. His suspect handles nearly cost Chicago the title untill Pip took over.


Oh, that's right! My bad! :man10: :man10: :man10:
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Postby SWOL on Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:47 am

KWAME / JUAN DIXON / JARVIS HAYES

4

CARON / JJ / ATKINS AND FILLER

ASSUMING WE GET ANTONIO DANIELS

DANIELS / DIXON
KOBE / VON WAFER
LAMAR / HAYES
KWAME / TURIAF
MIHM / BYNUM
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Postby KB24 on Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:49 am

swolswol wrote:KWAME / JUAN DIXON / JARVIS HAYES

4

CARON / JJ / ATKINS AND FILLER

ASSUMING WE GET ANTONIO DANIELS

DANIELS / DIXON
KOBE / VON WAFER
LAMAR / HAYES
KWAME / TURIAF
MIHM / BYNUM
:jam2:
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Postby SeVeN on Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:52 am

KB8@CL wrote:
swolswol wrote:KWAME / JUAN DIXON / JARVIS HAYES

4

CARON / JJ / ATKINS AND FILLER

ASSUMING WE GET ANTONIO DANIELS

DANIELS / DIXON
KOBE / VON WAFER
LAMAR / HAYES
KWAME / TURIAF
MIHM / BYNUM
:jam2:


Me too... :jam2:

If we can pull that off, I would be extatic!!!
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Postby BGil on Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:00 am

VerbalMilk wrote:
magic2kb8 wrote:
VerbalMilk wrote:
Kobe is a much better ball handler than Jordan ever was


Actually, Kobe's handles didn't get good until about 2002 or later. MJ had handles coming out of NC, bro. Kobe was ALWAYS a hazard with the rock early on.


I think he means kobe has more abilty with the ball than mike had, he can do more stuff...but mike was less turnover prone....kobe definitely goes left better than mike.


I don't know if he meant that, but even saying that is suspect. I've seen MJ shake fools out of the gym, so KB isn't the only one with shakes.


No doubt, but how many times have you seen Jordan change direction while dribbling with speed? Most of Jordan's shakes were shot fakes, that's why Phil J was talking about when he was talking aobut Jordan's hands being bigger than Kobe's.
Lots of people are "one gap" slashers. Look at Dirk and Rip Hamiltion versus someone like Billups or Bibby. Neither Billups nor Bibby are fast or explosive players but their change of direction skills are very good and that's what allows them to get open shots and get to the basket. GP is another example of a player with great change of direction skills but not much speed. Jordan was the exact opposite, lots of explosiveness but not so much change of direction ability.

Similarly, it's the reason why Phil thinks Lamar will make a good point forward and ball handler whereas he took those responsibilties away from Jordan.
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Postby Guest on Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:29 am

BGil wrote:
VerbalMilk wrote:
magic2kb8 wrote:
VerbalMilk wrote:
Kobe is a much better ball handler than Jordan ever was


Actually, Kobe's handles didn't get good until about 2002 or later. MJ had handles coming out of NC, bro. Kobe was ALWAYS a hazard with the rock early on.


I think he means kobe has more abilty with the ball than mike had, he can do more stuff...but mike was less turnover prone....kobe definitely goes left better than mike.


I don't know if he meant that, but even saying that is suspect. I've seen MJ shake fools out of the gym, so KB isn't the only one with shakes.


No doubt, but how many times have you seen Jordan change direction while dribbling with speed? Most of Jordan's shakes were shot fakes, that's why Phil J was talking about when he was talking aobut Jordan's hands being bigger than Kobe's.
Lots of people are "one gap" slashers. Look at Dirk and Rip Hamiltion versus someone like Billups or Bibby. Neither Billups nor Bibby are fast or explosive players but their change of direction skills are very good and that's what allows them to get open shots and get to the basket. GP is another example of a player with great change of direction skills but not much speed. Jordan was the exact opposite, lots of explosiveness but not so much change of direction ability.

Similarly, it's the reason why Phil thinks Lamar will make a good point forward and ball handler whereas he took those responsibilties away from Jordan.


I can see your point on that somewhat, bro. Good post.
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Postby Guest on Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:52 am

lakerswiz wrote:thats like trading hmm.

a 2001 mustang for a 1978 suburban.


Well, hold on now...Is the Burb on 24 inch spinners? :man1:
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Postby SWOL on Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:56 am

VerbalMilk wrote:
lakerswiz wrote:thats like trading hmm.

a 2001 mustang for a 1978 suburban.


Well, hold on now...Is the Burb on 24 inch spinners? :man1:


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Postby Guest on Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:09 pm

swolswol wrote:
VerbalMilk wrote:
lakerswiz wrote:thats like trading hmm.

a 2001 mustang for a 1978 suburban.


Well, hold on now...Is the Burb on 24 inch spinners? :man1:


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24inch on bows? Paul Wall-in' it? :man1:
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Postby Snake Eyes on Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:20 pm

Sorry to see Caron go if this is true, but if it gets Lamar at SF, and a banger in the PF spot then it is best for the team.
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Postby maddprophet on Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:28 pm

brown has the potential to be a force down low. if this is the best offer on the table for us to improve down low, which we all agree is a priority, then it needs to be done.

caron is gonna command a large contract in a year, and other teams will offer him much more than we can afford. so the odds of us loosing caron long term arevery realistic. think about that when evaluating this trade.

if kwame even some what fullfills his potential, you are looking at a future with 2 7 footers down low. i vision kwame at the 4, playing some backup minutes at 5. but with the potential of a bynum brown front court, you've gotta at least be quite intrigued by the possibilities.

there is a risk, but a worthy one. i believe there needs to something else added to this deal to make it a go. caron straight up is a bit too much for brown. but either a filler, or draft picks could seal the deal.

bynum and brown is a bright future, oh, not to mention kobe and lamar. this helps us short term, and possibly sets us up for a dominate future. :man13:
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Postby SeVeN on Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:31 pm

maddprophet wrote:brown has the potential to be a force down low. if this is the best offer on the table for us to improve down low, which we all agree is a priority, then it needs to be done.

caron is gonna command a large contract in a year, and other teams will offer him much more than we can afford. so the odds of us loosing caron long term arevery realistic. think about that when evaluating this trade.

if kwame even some what fullfills his potential, you are looking at a future with 2 7 footers down low. i vision kwame at the 4, playing some backup minutes at 5. but with the potential of a bynum brown front court, you've gotta at least be quite intrigued by the possibilities.

there is a risk, but a worthy one. i believe there needs to something else added to this deal to make it a go. caron straight up is a bit too much for brown. but either a filler, or draft picks could seal the deal.

bynum and brown is a bright future, oh, not to mention kobe and lamar. this helps us short term, and possibly sets us up for a dominate future. :man13:


I totally and whole heartedly agree bro!!! :bow:
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Postby lakerfool on Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:35 pm

SeVeN wrote:
maddprophet wrote:brown has the potential to be a force down low. if this is the best offer on the table for us to improve down low, which we all agree is a priority, then it needs to be done.

caron is gonna command a large contract in a year, and other teams will offer him much more than we can afford. so the odds of us loosing caron long term arevery realistic. think about that when evaluating this trade.

if kwame even some what fullfills his potential, you are looking at a future with 2 7 footers down low. i vision kwame at the 4, playing some backup minutes at 5. but with the potential of a bynum brown front court, you've gotta at least be quite intrigued by the possibilities.

there is a risk, but a worthy one. i believe there needs to something else added to this deal to make it a go. caron straight up is a bit too much for brown. but either a filler, or draft picks could seal the deal.

bynum and brown is a bright future, oh, not to mention kobe and lamar. this helps us short term, and possibly sets us up for a dominate future. :man13:


I totally and whole heartedly agree bro!!! :bow:


Good post

like i said, Brown + Dixon or Jared Jeffires for Caron and EXP CONTRACT of Wiz choice
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Postby Guest on Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:42 pm

MaddP! From the old school, ROCKIN' DA JOINT! :man12:
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