HoopsWorld: Josh Smith to L.A.? (DET update p9)

Postby dmanxx on Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:37 pm

no trade is going to happen.... believe me... :mhihi:
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Postby crucifido on Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:43 pm

Seriously, everyone is almost panic mode as if this front line the Lakers will have is atrocious. They got to the Finals with Gasol playing out of position and essentially no defensive big man in the middle.

With Odom back, everyone settles into their spots. Mihm can fill in for Ronny's stats, Sasha re-signed, Kobe's happy, Farmar improves, they still have Fisher, a defensive and possibly offensive gem in Ariza off the bench, Bynum back in the lineup to fill in the middle, Phil is still here and the entire team now has experience deep into the playoffs while maintaining a good balance of mid-level, young and veteran players on the team.

Without seeing what this front line can do, I'm having trouble realizing just why everyone is so dang anxious to make as big a change as trading Odom would be.

Give it a look-see first. If its an unmitigated disaster (which I can't see it being) then you look for deals. There's plenty of time. Until then just look for health on the Lakers, instead of changing the core of the team.

As emplay said (and I whole-heartedly agree), who has gotten exponentially better? The rest of the West is scrambling to catch up to the Lakers (since the Gasol trade) and its still happening with Houston gambling on Artest.

If the Lakers can sign one more (mid-level talent) big man to fill in at the 4 and go into camp fully healthy using the drive they have after losing in the Finals, I'll be happy.

Everyone freaked out before when Mitch didn't pull the trigger on the Bynum for Kidd deal. Now that Mitch has proven that he can pull the big deal and is capable of making the small trades to bolster a team (ala Ariza) there's still a group of people that have no confidence in him and management?

Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I like the look of this Laker team and can't see them falling behind in the West.
Last edited by crucifido on Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby remixed on Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:47 pm

crucifido wrote:Seriously, everyone is almost panic mode as if this front line the Lakers will have is atrocious. They got to the Finals with Gasol playing out of position and essentially no defensive big man in the middle.

With Odom back, everyone settles into their spots. Mihm can fill in for Ronny's stats, Sasha re-signed, Kobe's happy, Farmar now has experience, they still have Fisher, a defensive and possibly offensive gem in Ariza off the bench, etc.

Without seeing what this front line can do, I'm having trouble realizing just why everyone is so dang anxious to make as big a change as trading Odom would be.

Give it a look-see first. If its an unmitigated disaster (which I can't see it being) then you look for deals. There's plenty of time. Until then just look for health on the Lakers, instead of changing the core of the team.

As emplay said (and I whole-heartedly agree), who has gotten exponentially better? The rest of the West is scrambling to catch up to the Lakers (since the Gasol trade) and its still happening with Houston gambling on Artest.

If the Lakers can sign one more (mid-level talent) big man to fill in at the 4 and go into camp fully healthy using the drive they have after losing in the Finals, I'll be happy.


Couldn't have said it better myself.

Everyone is underestimating the addition of Bynum. As inconsistent as Odom is, we still have the longest, and most talented front court in the league. We won't know what could be if we don't let it happen.
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Postby last stand on Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:47 pm

crucifido wrote:Seriously, everyone is almost panic mode as if this front line the Lakers will have is atrocious. They got to the Finals with Gasol playing out of position and essentially no defensive big man in the middle.

With Odom back, everyone settles into their spots. Mihm can fill in for Ronny's stats, Sasha re-signed, Kobe's happy, Farmar now has experience, they still have Fisher, a defensive and possibly offensive gem in Ariza off the bench, etc.

Without seeing what this front line can do, I'm having trouble realizing just why everyone is so dang anxious to make as big a change as trading Odom would be.

Give it a look-see first. If its an unmitigated disaster (which I can't see it being) then you look for deals. There's plenty of time. Until then just look for health on the Lakers, instead of changing the core of the team.

As emplay said (and I whole-heartedly agree), who has gotten exponentially better? The rest of the West is scrambling to catch up to the Lakers (since the Gasol trade) and its still happening with Houston gambling on Artest.

If the Lakers can sign one more (mid-level talent) big man to fill in at the 4 and go into camp fully healthy and with the drive they'll have after losing in the Finals, I'll be happy.


yeah that and sign brian skinner

i have saidd many times which you may agree

while lamar may not be a great fit he most certainly is a better player to have at SF a much better

that coupled with a healthy bynum and ariza

we might have improved the most right behind philadephia

andrew/ skinner/ mihm
pau/ skinner/ vlad
lamar/ ariza/ luke
kobe/ sasha/ crawford
fisher/ farmar/ mitchell
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Postby Punk-101 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:49 pm

I agree cruc, except for 2 points.

mihm appears atrocious and DONE. You really think he's gonna replace Ronny?

How was Artest a gamble for Houston? they gave up nothing and he expires after this year.
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Postby last stand on Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:49 pm

remixed wrote:
crucifido wrote:Seriously, everyone is almost panic mode as if this front line the Lakers will have is atrocious. They got to the Finals with Gasol playing out of position and essentially no defensive big man in the middle.

With Odom back, everyone settles into their spots. Mihm can fill in for Ronny's stats, Sasha re-signed, Kobe's happy, Farmar now has experience, they still have Fisher, a defensive and possibly offensive gem in Ariza off the bench, etc.

Without seeing what this front line can do, I'm having trouble realizing just why everyone is so dang anxious to make as big a change as trading Odom would be.

Give it a look-see first. If its an unmitigated disaster (which I can't see it being) then you look for deals. There's plenty of time. Until then just look for health on the Lakers, instead of changing the core of the team.

As emplay said (and I whole-heartedly agree), who has gotten exponentially better? The rest of the West is scrambling to catch up to the Lakers (since the Gasol trade) and its still happening with Houston gambling on Artest.

If the Lakers can sign one more (mid-level talent) big man to fill in at the 4 and go into camp fully healthy using the drive they have after losing in the Finals, I'll be happy.


Couldn't have said it better myself.

Everyone is underestimating the addition of Bynum. As inconsistent as Odom is, we still have the longest, and most talented front court in the league. We won't know what could be if we don't let it happen.


most likely the approach mitch is taking

before i didn't like the fit at all

now when you look at it odom does not need to be an all star he can be inconsistent as long as he gives 100%

bynum is the guy we need to rely on to be the 3rd option night in and night out

odom can be our wild card that secret weapon that when hes on you have no chance and when hes off you have a slight chance but not much
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Postby hollywood swinger on Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:50 pm

damnit emplay why didn't you trade for artest or atleast get us j.smith! :mad1: :man10: that was a joke. some people here act like your the gm or if you give the factual info and not the info they want to hear mitch and the front office decisions are your falt. this is silly people. emplay only reports what he knows or believes. stop acting like it is his fault we havent made a big splash that some of you want. odom is our big chip where he stays and works out in the new front court or whether we trade him at deadline. either way it is a win win situation folks.
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Postby last stand on Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:51 pm

Punk-101 wrote:I agree cruc, except for 2 points.

mihm appears atrocious and DONE. You really think he's gonna replace Ronny?

How was Artest a gamble for Houston? they gave up nothing and he expires after this year.


to me its a gamble in that it could take touches out of yao's hands

will it i don't know

i have learned always expect the worse

if that houston team is clicking on all cylinders we are still better i find comfort in that
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Postby last stand on Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:52 pm

hollywood swinger wrote:damnit emplay why didn't you trade for artest or atleast get us j.smith! :mad1: :man10: that was a joke. some people here act like your the gm or if you give the factual info and not the info they want to hear mitch and the front office decisions are your falt. this is silly people. emplay only reports what he knows or believes. stop acting like it is his fault we havent made a big splash that some of you want. odom is our big chip where he stays and works out in the new front court or whether we trade him at deadline. either way it is a win win situation folks.


yeah emplay is very helpful we should not drive him away

he already like lakersground better :disagree:
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Postby crucifido on Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:55 pm

Artest always comes equipped with erratic behavior and a fair chunk of nuttiness about him. With the rickety health of the Rockets and him taking away minutes from a finally comfortable Battier, it could be risky. Everyone knows that if things don't go right for Artest off the bat he tends to lose focus and become cancerous.

The Rockets did give up nothing which is great for them, but with Artest you had better hope he comes with the right mindset night in and night out. I'm not sure Adelman can come close to handling a guy like him.

Mihm looked done because he hadn't played in a full year. With camp under his belt and getting his strength back in his legs I'm sure Mihm can replace Ronny's production.

Exactly last stand. I think a lot of people are still stuck in the old Odom mode where the Lakers had to lean on him heavily to be productive. That's not the case any more. he is the 4th option now, which puts him in a nice comfort zone of simply grabbing boards and patrolling the high post on offense and defense. You know there will be sporadic nights when Odom will put up big numbers sheerly because of the focus teams will have to put on Kobe, Andrew and Pau.

You have to step back and realize the team the Lakers have - its a monster. They got to the Finals with no center and almost every player having to step out of position for long runs to fill the gap. Yet they still came within 2 games of winning the whole thing.

P.S. - I agree with you last stand, Skinner would be the kind of guy they need.
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Postby crucifido on Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:57 pm

One more thing.

Let's say the Lakers stand pat, everything works out and they win the ring.

Artest is still unrestricted next summer and you can add him then if need be.

(Also I still think its the Mavericks the initial article was talking about)
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Postby Vidball on Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:07 pm

emplay wrote:acquisitions

Hornets - Posey
Rockets - Artest
Lakers - Bynum

yeah - Lakers there


Rockets are kinda adding Yao and Artest if we are adding Bynum. Yao missed the playoffs too.
Lakers are still the better team though...especially after this JSmoove trade goes down :mhihi:
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Postby last stand on Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:09 pm

you know who i think is a 100% certainty to be a laker next year

jason kidd

watch hes 35 he will sign the MLE for 2 years and try to win a title

people may laugh now but his contract is up and hes wanted to be a laker since well forever
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Postby therealdeal on Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:14 pm

KOBETIMEALLDAY wrote:gosh i wanted Artest, remember Odom cant shoot that well and cant defend Paul Pierce, etc.

I'm tired of Lamar "Party animal e-tard" Odom

He is NOT a winner. PERIOD.. He has great rebounding and slashing skills but with Bynum AND Gasol down low rebounding is not our need.

Slashing is good but not super necessary, shooting and defense are VITAL.

We need trade him for a starting small forward that can.

Josh Smith can't really shoot that great, but he can defend and blocks shots and energize us with dunks!! Plus his shooting can improve i think. His potential is huge. His defense is already top notch.

Prince would be a good fit

Marion would be a good fit

These are the 3 guys... We really need to trade Odom for one of them!!

Then we can sign a backup big from anywhere and we r set.

Fish / Farmar
Kobe / Sasha
NEW SF / Ariza / Vlad / Walton
Gasol / Vlad /Backup Big
Bynum / Backup Big / Mihm


Emplay PLEASE tell everyone you know that Odom is not a good idea for us at the SF position. PLEASE understand that we don't need a big small foward with rebounding and slashing skills, we need defense and shooting.

If we keep Odom, the Celtics still scare me because they will pack the lane and not honor our SF on the perimeter. This will make things very very tough on Kobe, Bynum, and Pau.

Even with Odom I still think we will win tho :)

I just want to see that 73-9 season!!!!!!!!


honestly its not as big a deal as you think it is to have odom in the SF
we have one of, if not the, most versatile lineups in the league.
Against the Celtics we will start odom at the SF but then we will move Kobe to SF, and put in either Sasha or Ariza ( i know it sounds wierd but i think it works better than anticipated) and then, once Pierce is tired of Kobe's D, we bring in Odom again and let him slash all he wants, being able to dish it to either Pau or Bynum underneath whenever necesary.

honestly i think this team is going to work wonders and people need to give it a chance before just destroying the idea of greatness.
im not arguing im just trying to show you how great we can be, you know?
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Postby last stand on Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:16 pm

if odom would have defended pierce the series would have been different

he is more athletic, longer, smarter than vlad
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Postby therealdeal on Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:22 pm

last stand wrote:if odom would have defended pierce the series would have been different

he is more athletic, longer, smarter than vlad


i dont think odom could have defended pierce any better, which is in itself pretty sad, but he can work on that im pretty sure hes considered the player with the most potential ever ( thats what i always hear anyway even at his age) and if thats true, which it is to a degree, then he can get a little better

but i honestly think we should have moved Kobe to three and given either Sasha or Ariza the SG spot.

and there is no question whatsoever that odom>vlad
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Postby LakersFan1211 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:22 pm

He would've defend Pierce if Bynum was there to defend Perkins.
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Postby therealdeal on Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:24 pm

LakersFan1211 wrote:He would've defend Pierce if Bynum was there to defend Perkins.


seriously, just the addition of a Center, let alone an up and coming center like Bynum and that serious is different in just about every single way
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Postby Indianballer on Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:25 pm

All the writers say Artest will start at Power Forward. If they do this Scola is the backup PF. So where does that leave Carl Landry. The rockets really don't need him and I don't think they have the monry to sign him. I think he is the perfect 3/4 player we need that can really get nasty and do the dirty work at either the 3 or 4. I think he would be the perfect last piece.
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Postby last stand on Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:28 pm

Indianballer wrote:All the writers say Artest will start at Power Forward. If they do this Scola is the backup PF. So where does that leave Carl Landry. The rockets really don't need him and I don't think they have the monry to sign him. I think he is the perfect 3/4 player we need that can really get nasty and do the dirty work at either the 3 or 4. I think he would be the perfect last piece.


there is no way they start ron at PF

how does he guard

boozer
david west
pau gasol
tim duncan
kevin garnett

basically the teams they have to play to get to a title will create serious matchup problems
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Postby 10scott10 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:29 pm

Indianballer wrote:All the writers say Artest will start at Power Forward. If they do this Scola is the backup PF. So where does that leave Carl Landry. The rockets really don't need him and I don't think they have the monry to sign him. I think he is the perfect 3/4 player we need that can really get nasty and do the dirty work at either the 3 or 4. I think he would be the perfect last piece.


They are pissed at landry becuase he refuses to take an MRI to prove his knee is healthy.

they won't sign him till he takes it, and he refuses to take it until he is signed.
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Postby 10scott10 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:30 pm

last stand wrote:
Indianballer wrote:All the writers say Artest will start at Power Forward. If they do this Scola is the backup PF. So where does that leave Carl Landry. The rockets really don't need him and I don't think they have the monry to sign him. I think he is the perfect 3/4 player we need that can really get nasty and do the dirty work at either the 3 or 4. I think he would be the perfect last piece.


there is no way they start ron at PF

how does he guard

boozer
david west
pau gasol
tim duncan
kevin garnett

basically the teams they have to play to get to a title will create serious matchup problems


I mean Bill Artest trying to defend pau. :man10: :man10: :man10: :man10: :man10: :man10:

i like that match-up
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Postby Indianballer on Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:07 am

hey that wasn't my idea its what Marc Stein Hollinger and JA Adande were saying. It makes sense there are maybe 5 players more physical then artest in the league, he can stay with anyone regardless of how tall they are. He would proably turn Gasol into a jump shooter.
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Postby L4L on Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:22 am

crucifido wrote: They got to the Finals with Gasol playing out of position and essentially no defensive big man in the middle.


This is the only thing I disagree with. Gasol is not a 4. Just because he is a terrible, soft rebounder does not make him a 4. He can say he's more comfortable in the high post all he wants, but he was most effective in Memphis, as a scorer, attacking people off the baseline from 10-12 feet. From there, he does his dancing routine of swings, swing steps, jap steps, and he'll either pull up from mid-range if they bite on the fake or go to the hoop.

From the high post (15-18ft), Gasol does not have the quickness to beat most fours off the bounce. He has nowhere near the speed necessary to defend them either.

Something I wrote earlier:
4. Pau won't be better defensively against 4s
Now, let's address the claim that Pau will be better defensively against 4s. Do people honestly believe that Pau has the foot-speed to stay with David West, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Garnett, Amare Stoudemire, and the like out on the perimeter? If KG would have made anywhere NEAR his regular percentages on his jumpers, like the usual %s he put up against Gasol while the two played elsewhere, KG would have averaged somewhere near 24ppg and 50% shooting with 13 rebounds a game. We cannot count on people like Garnett to miss a higher % of their jumpers when history suggests they are good shooters. Pau is not a terrible man defender in the post; he is actually very underrated. Out on the perimeter against some of today's 4s? I see big time trouble in store for him and, consequently, the Lakers.

Let's check the numbers on this issue:
Regular Seasons (PER given up PF vs C:
2006-2007: No time at PF
2005-2006: 17.1 vs 15.1 -- PF defense was worse
2004-2005: 17.0 vs. 19.0 -- PF defense was better, but played bad defensively at both positions
2003-2004: 17.6 vs. 13.3 -- PF defense was FAR worse
2002-2003: No PER available, but 55.4 eFG% and 23.7 points at PF versus 48.8 eFG% and 19.4 points at C

What have we learned?: Pau is a WORSE defender at the four. Not better, WORSE.


By utilizing the triangle, we can play Gasol in the block against smallers 4s and he should be able to dominate offensively. However, that said, he's still going to give up plenty of points at the 4 -- more than he would at the same. By placing Gasol on the block, we move Bynum to the high post where he doesn't have the range to shoot and it allows for soft doubles on Kobe and Gasol.

While I think Gasol at the 4 will produce excellent results offensively, I simply don't agree with those who say that he was playing out of position. He really wasn't. He is a 5 with the offensive versatility to play 4 and not the other way around IMHO.
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Postby LakersN4 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:27 am

Let's check the numbers on this issue:
Regular Seasons (PER given up PF vs C:
2006-2007: No time at PF
2005-2006: 17.1 vs 15.1 -- PF defense was worse
2004-2005: 17.0 vs. 19.0 -- PF defense was better, but played bad defensively at both positions
2003-2004: 17.6 vs. 13.3 -- PF defense was FAR worse
2002-2003: No PER available, but 55.4 eFG% and 23.7 points at PF versus 48.8 eFG% and 19.4 points at C

What have we learned?: Pau is a WORSE defender at the four. Not better, WORSE.
Or maybe we learned that there aren't as many good scorers at C as there are at PF? There were only 19 centers in the NBA that averaged over 10 PPG last season. & only 4 centers that averaged over 16 PPG. That's counting Amare & Al Jefferson as Centers
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