Pinnock vs Wafer

Pinnock vs Wafer

Postby la3346 on Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:50 am

I know most are leaning toward Pinnock at this point, but I have a different view. The biggest problem I have with Pinnock is that he's only 6'3 without shoes, there's no way he can play SG because of that.

Also, all the hooplas about Pinnock's defense aside, it seemed to me that reading Mike's report, Wafer actually has better lateral movement than Pinnock. And that's all I care about, because if you think about it, it's easy to get steals when teams are so unorganized. It's a lot harder to do that in a playoffs game, when teams are so careful about movement.

Right now, Wafer's biggest problem is his composure/IQ/confidence/mental stuff, but you should never judge a guy based on that, because once again, assuming two guys with equal confidence, then clearly the guy with the better talent wins out. All you have to do is look at Sasha last year. If it were up to us, he would have never made the team, as he was never on a level playing field due to his lack of confidence(although he still doesn't look like much now, due to his physical limitations, we saw that he's not as bad as we thought he were in the summer league.)

If their ballhandling is equal, then you have to go with Wafer. He's a better shooter, an inch taller, is younger(Pinnock is 23, which probably explains why he is more composed than Wafer), can jump higher, and a better man defender. Only thing Pinnock has on Wafer, on the physical level, is the wingspan.
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Postby KB24 on Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:57 am

1. Wafer is a chucker and Pinnock can actually create for himself ( from what I have seen).
Wafer is as dumb as a potato on the floor.. Yes Wafer has a great body and I really mean great but he is way too dumb to do anything. He has absolutely no improvement sofar after a year. I want Pinnock because I´m ready to try something new. Had Pinnock been mister x I would still pick him over Wafer. At this point Wafer is worthless, just one of thise athletes that fails to succeed.
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Postby la3346 on Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:09 am

Look at this video of Wafer

http://rapidshare.de/files/25423370/SPL ... f.mpg.html

That's not a guy that can just dunk. That's a pretty skilled guy. He can shoot, he can handle the ball, and he's very athletic. Basically, he has all three of the criteria of what you need, when you want to look for a quality starting guard, late in the first round.

You have to keep in mind, Wafer only played one year of college ball. So,
his knowledge of the game shouldn't be expected to be higher than someone like Farmar and Pinnock(23 is pretty old for a rookie.)

Also, like I said with Sasha, if you're low on confidence, then you can look like nothing at times. Wafer is in the same situation as Sasha was last year, which is understandable because he's young, and it's hard for him to understand the concept of not getting down on yourself too much.

In the summer league, it's far better to look for physical attributes than just how they're playing, as that can varied too much, based on confidence level. And while Pinnock is not a bad athlete himself, Wafer is even better.
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Postby Sky on Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:12 am

Pinnock's hoop iq dwarfs Wafer's. Wafter can only create for himself and doesn't run the offense. Pinnock even at this early stage has a better grasp of the triangle than Wafer.

Pinnock has shown the complete package. Create his own shot and set up others, pull up off the dribble and catch and shoot, finish, midrange, 3. Good handles. His man D needs some work, his team D is heady. Smart court awareness, pretty good passer. Wafer is faster laterally, but he was overplaying for steals not manning up.

Pinnock measured 6-4 in shoes with a 6-7 1/2 wingspan and a standing reach of 8-4 1/2. Size is not a big issue. Directional speed defensively is the only area where Pinnock loses out to Wafer. But if Von is overgambling for steals and getting beat off the dribble constantly, that speed edge is irrelevant becuase he isn't using it to defend.
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Postby la3346 on Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:18 am

But you can teach a guy not to gamble Sky, as long as he has the lateral movement(which I didn't think Smush had, so I think his gambling was kind of forced, by the coaching staff).

And I know there have been a lot of tweeners in this league, but 6'4(in shoes) is really stretching it. I mean, it's not like his wingspan is like Dwayne Wade's here.

Anyway, maybe they can keep Pinnock as backup PG and Wafer as backup shooting guard. At this point, we might as well just cut Sasha and McKie.
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Re: Pinnock vs Wafer

Postby A Rush on Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:18 am

la3346 wrote:Right now, Wafer's biggest problem is his composure/IQ/confidence/mental stuff, but you should never judge a guy based on that,


:bang: :man10: :man6:
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Postby la3346 on Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:27 am

Yeah, that hurts, coming from a guy who says KG is not a franchise player :man10:
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Postby Sky on Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:33 am

You should judge a guy based on his impact on the floor. Wafer lacks the mental, Sasha lacks the physical, and the weakness of each is obvious on the floor.

la - You can coach a guy to defend instead of solely playing for steals. Wafer hasn't learned that one yet. Until he does his physical advantage in lateral speed is wasted.

I'm all for cutting Sasha and Mckie but both are under contract. Rambis has said what they want to see from Wafer is running the offense. He's not doing it. He's only creating for himself. If there's a choice for final roster spot between Pinnock and Wafer it's not close. Pinnock. Vastly superior hoop iq, better passer, more versatile shooter. Wafer is a better dunker, and a better athlete, but not a better player.
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Postby SWOL on Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:39 am

DUDE WAFER HAS BEEN DEMOTED TO SCRUB ON THE SUMMER LEAGUE TEAM, THAT IS BASICALLY TELLING HIM TO TRY OUT FOR AND 1....THINK ABOUT IT WHAT SEPERATES THE AND 1 GUYS AND NBA BALLERS? NOT TALENT, ITS BASKETBALL I.Q., SOMETHING VON HAS NONE OF, AND IM NOT SURE YOU CAN JUST TEACH A GROWN MAN HOW TO BE A SMART BASKETBALL PLAYER, IF YOU'RE DUMB, YOU'RE DUMB AND IF PINNOCK HAS BEEN HERE 1 WEEK AND IS GRASPING THE OFFENSE MORE THAN A CAT THAT HASS BEEN HERE FOR A YEAR, THEN THERE IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM, THE GUY IS DUMB THINK ABOUT IT


VON, THERE IS A SPOT FOR YOU ON THE AND 1 TEAM, WE'LL CALL YOU

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Postby gng930 on Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:43 am

Sky wrote:Pinnock's hoop iq dwarfs Wafer's. Wafter can only create for himself and doesn't run the offense. Pinnock even at this early stage has a better grasp of the triangle than Wafer.


What about placing Wafer at the wing where he wouldn't have to create for others? Wouldn't Wafer's comfort zone best be revealed when playing next to guys like Walton and Farmar?
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Postby la3346 on Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:46 am

And 1 players lack basic skills like ballhandling. If they can handle the ball, has height, and is athletic, you bet they will be drafted. As far as IQ, Luke has IQ, still doesn't make him any more than a bench player. I like Pinnock because he has skills AND athleticism. I'm just saying that Wafer is not as far behind him, as some think.

Anyway, we can also cut Green, he doesn't seem to do anything except make layups and shoot spot up jumpers.
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Postby KB24 on Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:09 am

best case scenario is that we cut Sasha, Mckilled, Green, Wafer because all 4 suck.
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Postby SWOL on Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:41 am

la3346 wrote:And 1 players lack basic skills like ballhandling. If they can handle the ball, has height, and is athletic, you bet they will be drafted. As far as IQ, Luke has IQ, still doesn't make him any more than a bench player. I like Pinnock because he has skills AND athleticism. I'm just saying that Wafer is not as far behind him, as some think.

Anyway, we can also cut Green, he doesn't seem to do anything except make layups and shoot spot up jumpers.


ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? AND 1 PLAYERS LACK HANDLE???

HAHA, THAT IS WHAT THEY DO, THEY HANDLE THE ROCK AND DUNK ON PEOPLE, IF YOU DONT THINK THEY HAVE HANDLE GO TO THE NEXT OPEN RUN NEAR YOU AND GET ON THE COURT WITH THESE CATS, I GARANTTEE YOU, YOU WILL GET CROSSED UP AND GET BALL TO THE FACE, THEN THEY WILL TAKE IT, THROW IT IN THE STANDS AND RUN AROUND IN CIRCLES.....THEY DONT DO BASIC FUNDAMENTAL I.Q. BASKETBALL THINGS LIKE CHEST PASS AND CURLS AROUND SCREENS, BASICALLY THEY DONT KNOW HOW TO RUN OFFENSES, SORT OF LIKE VON WAFER....AND YOU COMPARE HIM TO LUKE WHO STARTED IN THE PLAYOFFS WHILE VON PLAYED LIKE 4 GAMES ALL SEASON, HAHAHHAHAHA, YOUR ARGUMENT IS TRASH
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Postby PurpleNGold1 on Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:57 am

correct me IF IM WRONG ISNT WADE ONLY 6-4 AND PLAYS SG AND PINNOK IS MEASURED AT 6-5 WID SHOES
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Postby Still A Dynasty on Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:04 pm

i wish we didnt have to rely on either being on the squad. but wafer seems to need more time before he is ready to play for the lakers at the pg spot.
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Postby Sky on Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:05 pm

la - The critical separation between Pinnock and Wafer is hoop iq and that's what Jackson values most. Sure cut Green, but there's still not enough space for both Wafer and Pinnock. Pinnock has the tri skill set they want, and the smart 2-way game in a player that can create for himself and others, finish and hit midrange off the dribble and 3 in catch and shoot, thereby providing a skill set the roster lacks.

gng - Put Wafer wing to just score? Evans can already do that. No need to double up on skill sets and cut a guy who provides what you lack. Pinnock 's unique 2-way game and versatile scoring is unmatched on the bench. Wafer can do things other bench guys already do. Wafer's skills are duplicated and Pinnock's are not. Therefore Wafer goes and Pinnock stays.
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Postby A Rush on Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:28 pm

la3346 wrote:Yeah, that hurts, coming from a guy who says KG is not a franchise player :man10:


So KG succeeded as the franchise player? The teams built around him did well? In which parallel universe would that be?
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Re: Pinnock vs Wafer

Postby trodgers on Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:40 pm

A Rush wrote:
la3346 wrote:Right now, Wafer's biggest problem is his composure/IQ/confidence/mental stuff, but you should never judge a guy based on that,


:bang: :man10: :man6:
:man10:

Laughable. Why judge a guy on those things? We all know that all of the good b-ball players were stupid, hot-headed, weak-willed, and tentative.

As far as Wafer/Pinnock goes, it's almost impossible for me to judge at this point. I've seen very little of either. Wafer looked bad in the NBA. Pinnock looked great in college. That means little. In SPL, Pinnock has the edge, but it's way early. I hope one of them really steps up, can make some contributions this season. The other guy (or maybe both) won't be in the NBA.
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Postby EQualizer on Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:41 pm

PurpleNGold1 wrote:correct me IF IM WRONG ISNT WADE ONLY 6-4 AND PLAYS SG AND PINNOK IS MEASURED AT 6-5 WID SHOES


wade can also dunk over KG, no sarcasm at all...there's a difference between wade and a lot of the other 6'4'' guards
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Postby Tai Mai Shu on Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:43 pm

la3346 wrote:And 1 players lack basic skills like ballhandling. If they can handle the ball, has height, and is athletic, you bet they will be drafted. As far as IQ, Luke has IQ, still doesn't make him any more than a bench player. I like Pinnock because he has skills AND athleticism. I'm just saying that Wafer is not as far behind him, as some think.


no, not really. Ballhandling is one of their very few skills. They can't shoot, can't pass, can't play D....flashy cross-overs,palming the ball and the ability to dunk is every And1 player.
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Postby Ring It Up on Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:19 pm

la3346 wrote:And 1 players lack basic skills like ballhandling.


Have you ever seen And 1? Go tell Hot Sauce he lacks ball handling.
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Postby KB24 on Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:20 pm

Ring It Up wrote:
la3346 wrote:And 1 players lack basic skills like ballhandling.


Have you ever seen And 1? Go tell Hot Sauce he lacks ball handling.
:man10: :man10: :man10: :man10:

I´m sure if there is one aspect these guys are amazing at its ball handling.
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Postby Ring It Up on Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:21 pm

Tai Mai Shu wrote:
la3346 wrote:And 1 players lack basic skills like ballhandling. If they can handle the ball, has height, and is athletic, you bet they will be drafted. As far as IQ, Luke has IQ, still doesn't make him any more than a bench player. I like Pinnock because he has skills AND athleticism. I'm just saying that Wafer is not as far behind him, as some think.


no, not really. Ballhandling is one of their very few skills. They can't shoot, can't pass, can't play D....flashy cross-overs,palming the ball and the ability to dunk is every And1 player.


Cant pass? Do you think the And 1 tour was created to play defense?
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Postby BLAZINLAKERFAN on Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:02 pm

I'm still not sold on Wafer. I think he's built a house with all those bricks he throws up. Everyone here claims he could shoot but still hasnt showed it. I've watched him play the last year in the SPL and this year so far and he's put up brick after brick after brick. Pinnock in 2 games has been a better player than Von. At least from what i've seen.
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Postby halekulani on Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:40 pm

wafer can shoot


...

only when he plays against scrubs.
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