Dream or Redeem?

Cody · by **Cody** on Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:51 pm

LDR wrote:
lakeshow2k4 wrote:Magic didn't play in the previous NBA season (91-92) and still did very well for himself. Anyone who thinks Redeem team would win is probably younger than 17 years old and never saw these guys.

Barkley would DESTROY any PF or C on Redeem
Jordan was still only 28 years old at the time, he would torch Kobe or DWade
Stockton's dirty defense would keep CP3 in check
Don't forget Chris Mullin. You guys think Michael Redd is money from 3? Check Mullin's % from the 3 point line in '92

Drexler was in his prime along with Ewing. Don't forget about a young David Robinson. Dream Team would stomp these guys.

blocks · by **blocks** on Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:41 am

Redeem team without a doubt...More speed, more strength, more youth. Overall, athletes are just flat-out better these days. And holding this view is not about your age or a generational gap as a poster above me suggested. The fact is athletes in EVERY sport are BETTER than they were 16 years ago. Try to find a World Record that dates back more than 20 years...You won't.

So are you guys arguing that basketball is the single anomaly in this otherwise universally accepted idea?

And don't trot the 40+ average margin of victory out. Those international teams were NOWHERE near the Argentinians, the Spaniards, and the Greeks that the US is up against nowadays. In 92, those teams were jokes.

Great players and great teams should be classified as great by their era. If a Dwayne Wade was around in the early 80s, he would be a bigger legend than Dr. J or Pistol Pete is.

If Lebron was on a decent team in the 70s or the 80s he'd be unanimously considered the 2nd GOAT behind Jordan.

There is a difference between the "best" and the "greatest."
"Greatness" is a measurement: the gap in talent that you hold above your best competition or peers.

Today the competition gap has narrowed incredibly and the reasons for that are numerous (and I will elaborate, if anyone wishes). The Dream Team may be "Greater" than this team. But as far as true SKILL ...

Redeem Team >> Dream Team

It's called relativity.

ZenMaster4President · by **ZenMaster4President** on Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:26 am

^^^^^ Unfortunately for you, you will be promptly labeled as:

1. 17 years old
2. clueless

because of the revisionist history that many folks here practice.

I am not sure which way it would go, but to say that it's not even close is just :disagree:

I bet you there are people here who think that Mikan could hang with a center in the current NBA that has any talent... AND WIN!

solenstyle · by **solenstyle** on Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:41 am

blocks wrote:Redeem team without a doubt...More speed, more strength, more youth. Overall, athletes are just flat-out better these days. And holding this view is not about your age or a generational gap as a poster above me suggested. The fact is athletes in EVERY sport are BETTER than they were 16 years ago. Try to find a World Record that dates back more than 20 years...You won't.

So are you guys arguing that basketball is the single anomaly in this otherwise universally accepted idea?

And don't trot the 40+ average margin of victory out. Those international teams were NOWHERE near the Argentinians, the Spaniards, and the Greeks that the US is up against nowadays. In 92, those teams were jokes.

Great players and great teams should be classified as great by their era. If a Dwayne Wade was around in the early 80s, he would be a bigger legend than Dr. J or Pistol Pete is.

If Lebron was on a decent team in the 70s or the 80s he'd be unanimously considered the 2nd GOAT behind Jordan.

There is a difference between the "best" and the "greatest."
"Greatness" is a measurement: the gap in talent that you hold above your best competition or peers.

Today the competition gap has narrowed incredibly and the reasons for that are numerous (and I will elaborate, if anyone wishes). The Dream Team may be "Greater" than this team. But as far as true SKILL ...

Redeem Team >> Dream Team

It's called relativity.

I think you're giving today's athleticism too much credit. I would say Michael Jordan was more athletic than LeBron, Wade... etc...

LeBron is unique because of his athleticism coupled with his size. That makes him dangerous, but MJ is equally as athletic if not more (just not the size of LeBron). His vert was incredible and his explosiveness was equally great.

So that athleticism argument doesn't hold that much weight. And skill?

Players from those days were more fundamental so...

Overall, the difference in player growth (from a basketball standpoint) between the eras isn't too much of a factor when deciding skill. It's not like the Dream Team was from the 70's or something. It's only been 16 years.

blocks · by **blocks** on Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:05 am

solenstyle wrote:
blocks wrote:Redeem team without a doubt...More speed, more strength, more youth. Overall, athletes are just flat-out better these days. And holding this view is not about your age or a generational gap as a poster above me suggested. The fact is athletes in EVERY sport are BETTER than they were 16 years ago. Try to find a World Record that dates back more than 20 years...You won't.

So are you guys arguing that basketball is the single anomaly in this otherwise universally accepted idea?

And don't trot the 40+ average margin of victory out. Those international teams were NOWHERE near the Argentinians, the Spaniards, and the Greeks that the US is up against nowadays. In 92, those teams were jokes.

Great players and great teams should be classified as great by their era. If a Dwayne Wade was around in the early 80s, he would be a bigger legend than Dr. J or Pistol Pete is.

If Lebron was on a decent team in the 70s or the 80s he'd be unanimously considered the 2nd GOAT behind Jordan.

There is a difference between the "best" and the "greatest."
"Greatness" is a measurement: the gap in talent that you hold above your best competition or peers.

Today the competition gap has narrowed incredibly and the reasons for that are numerous (and I will elaborate, if anyone wishes). The Dream Team may be "Greater" than this team. But as far as true SKILL ...

Redeem Team >> Dream Team

It's called relativity.

I think you're giving today's athleticism too much credit. I would say Michael Jordan was more athletic than LeBron, Wade... etc...

LeBron is unique because of his athleticism coupled with his size. That makes him dangerous, but MJ is equally as athletic if not more (just not the size of LeBron). His vert was incredible and his explosiveness was equally great.

So that athleticism argument doesn't hold that much weight. And skill?

Players from those days were more fundamental so...

Overall, the difference in player growth (from a basketball standpoint) between the eras isn't too much of a factor when deciding skill. It's not like the Dream Team was from the 70's or something. It's only been 16 years.

Well as far as athletics go in this day and age (and you can't separate basketball from other sports of athleticism, obviously), 16 years IS a long time. 16 years ago, the World Record in the 100M dash was 9.86s. Today it is 9.69 with the record-setter chillin for the last 20m. And like I said, you will NOT find a measurable World Record out there that has lasted the past 20 years.

You also can not separate size and athleticism. They are part of the same equation. Strength + Speed & Agility = Athleticism. If I had just a notch below Manny Pacquiao's speed with George Foreman's strength. I'd take that. That is Lebron essentially.

The crux of the athleticism argument is in defining how the talent gap has narrowed.

And the truth is that it's a combination of both technology and incentive.

Technology has blossomed since 1992. Most of the players on the Dream Team had never even heard of the Internet.

And with the enormous size of professional basketball contracts and the 'superstar' status that is out there to achieve, the incentive of youth to pursue the sport has increased exponentially. More experimenting in the craft = Greater chances of a remarkable talent appearing.

solenstyle · by **solenstyle** on Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:04 am

That is true but who has LeBron's athleticism with his size? The only other big man that is very athletic with a big body is Dwight. Nobody else is a freak of nature...

Surely there are more athletic guys in today's NBA but you can't apply it to the question at hand.

So between the redeem team or dream team... the athleticism is very close. Wade is no Jordan, nor is Kobe (athleticism of course). So with that in mind, what makes you so sure, the athleticism is that distant when Wade is one of the most athletic on the team? Can they dunk from the freethrow line like Jordan could? Hardly anyone can do that in today's age, so I don't really agree with your assessment regarding athleticism.

The average NBA player is now more athletic but the superstars of yesterday are equally as athletic as todays... save for maybe LeBron and Dwight.

Given that that is the only thing that would edge the Redeem team over Dream Team, I give the nod to the Dream Team in a basketball match.

blocks · by **blocks** on Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:10 am

solenstyle wrote:That is true but who has LeBron's athleticism with his size? The only other big man that is very athletic with a big body is Dwight. Nobody else is a freak of nature...

Surely there are more athletic guys in today's NBA but you can't apply it to the question at hand.

So between the redeem team or dream team... the athleticism is very close. Wade is no Jordan, nor is Kobe (athleticism of course). So with that in mind, what makes you so sure, the athleticism is that distant when Wade is one of the most athletic on the team? Can they dunk from the freethrow line like Jordan could? Hardly anyone can do that in today's age, so I don't really agree with your assessment regarding athleticism.

The average NBA player is now more athletic but the superstars of yesterday are equally as athletic as todays... save for maybe LeBron and Dwight.

Given that that is the only thing that would edge the Redeem team over Dream Team, I give the nod to the Dream Team in a basketball match.

I agree with a lot of what you said here...but you're comparing ONE player..Michael Jordan, to the players on the Redeem Team. And looking at the teams overall, that is not fair.

Another factor is of course that the Dream Team was not built AS a TEAM. It was every superstar thrown together on the same roster. They did not play the TEAMS that are out there now. AS a TEAM, the Redeem Team is better.

Better, not necessarily greater, as I differentiated earlier.

solenstyle · by **solenstyle** on Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:13 am

Well the Redeem team does play more as a team and better(I agree), but that is only because that is the only way that would cut it in today's olympics. We really don't know how the Dream Team would do playing more team based (meaning more time to gel)...but

the reason why I give the nod to the Dream team is because of the frontline over Redeem's... everything else is a toss up imo.

mapabu1 · by **mapabu1** on Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:12 am

The dream team would win but the game would closer than people think.

Blasta_Masta8 · by **Blasta_Masta8** on Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:19 am

solenstyle wrote:That is true but who has LeBron's athleticism with his size? The only other big man that is very athletic with a big body is Dwight. Nobody else is a freak of nature...

Surely there are more athletic guys in today's NBA but you can't apply it to the question at hand.

So between the redeem team or dream team... the athleticism is very close. Wade is no Jordan, nor is Kobe (athleticism of course). So with that in mind, what makes you so sure, the athleticism is that distant when Wade is one of the most athletic on the team? Can they dunk from the freethrow line like Jordan could? Hardly anyone can do that in today's age, so I don't really agree with your assessment regarding athleticism.

The average NBA player is now more athletic but the superstars of yesterday are equally as athletic as todays... save for maybe LeBron and Dwight.

Given that that is the only thing that would edge the Redeem team over Dream Team, I give the nod to the Dream Team in a basketball match.

A lot of basketball players can take off from the free throw line now. High School kids can even take off from the free throw line now. Free throw line dunks cant even win dunk contests any more.

shush · by **shush** on Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:05 pm

dream team more because they can shoot.

LakersFan1211 · by **LakersFan1211** on Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:04 pm

1992's frontcourt beats 2008's frontcourt anyday.

solenstyle · by **solenstyle** on Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:31 am

Blasta_Masta8 wrote:
solenstyle wrote:That is true but who has LeBron's athleticism with his size? The only other big man that is very athletic with a big body is Dwight. Nobody else is a freak of nature...

Surely there are more athletic guys in today's NBA but you can't apply it to the question at hand.

So between the redeem team or dream team... the athleticism is very close. Wade is no Jordan, nor is Kobe (athleticism of course). So with that in mind, what makes you so sure, the athleticism is that distant when Wade is one of the most athletic on the team? Can they dunk from the freethrow line like Jordan could? Hardly anyone can do that in today's age, so I don't really agree with your assessment regarding athleticism.

The average NBA player is now more athletic but the superstars of yesterday are equally as athletic as todays... save for maybe LeBron and Dwight.

Given that that is the only thing that would edge the Redeem team over Dream Team, I give the nod to the Dream Team in a basketball match.

A lot of basketball players can take off from the free throw line now. High School kids can even take off from the free throw line now. Free throw line dunks cant even win dunk contests any more.

Actual free throw line dunk? Not that a foot over the line bullcrap that I always see... I'm actually curious (legit question).

LDR · by **LDR** on Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:44 am

On BSPN's website, they had this same exact poll. 68% of people thought the Dream Team would win, while 32% of people thought the Redeem Team would win. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

grego · by **grego** on Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:48 am

The front court is where the difference becomes very wide.

Kou · by **Kou** on Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:48 pm

Barkley/Malone/Admiral/Ewing vs Bosh/Boozer/Dwight

Thats not even funny, all of them would get schooled by any one of the Dream Teams bigs.

The Original 81 · by **The Original 81** on Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:58 pm

Without reading the topic (like an idiot), I assumed you were asking whether to call them the Dream Team or Redeem Team (don't know why), so that's why I voted for redeem team.

The perimeter matchups would be very entertaining, but the Dream Team's bigs would dominate the Redeem Team's. D12 would be the only one who could match up. Barkley vs Bosh/Boozer, are you kidding me?

A lot of you call Pau soft, but man Boozer is ten times softer. He let that 6'5" center on Angola post up and score inside on him. :man10:

Barkley would have a field day.

Kobe/Bron vs Jordan/Pippen would be very interesting to say the least.

L4L · by **L4L** on Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:11 pm

Dream wins in a rout.

In basketball, the athleticism of the AVERAGE player has increased. It has NOT increased at the top of the pack.

Magic and Stockton versus Chris Paul and Deron Williams? Advantage Dream.
It honestly doesn't matter how fast or quick Deron and Chris Paul are, Magic would dominate both in the post, on the boards, score more, and is better in the open court than either. Then you have Stockton who is assuredly less athletic. That said, with hand checks, part of that athletic advantage is sent into oblivion. Let's not get it twisted, Chris Paul and Deron would give up as much as they got at best. Neither are great defenders. Magic would slap Paul's midget [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] up and down the court. Deron aspires to become Stockton and his own coach calls him a "mini-Stockton".

Kobe / Wade / Redd or Jordan / Clyde / Mullin? Advantage dream.
There is NO athletic advantage when it comes to Kobe/Wade over Jordan and Drexler. Jordan was called Air for a reason. Clyde was called the Glide for a reason. Not to mention, Wade against hand-checks? Are you kidding me? No easy fouls inside? There goes half his game. Redd is not that impressive athletically and neither is Mullin. That said, Mullin was 1st Team All-NBA 91-92 season and Redd doesn't even sniff that kind of status. Mullin is the definition of a pure shooter. Redd just pretends to be with his sling shot release.

Bron and Tayshaun versus Pippen and Bird? Advantage Dream.
LeBron is surely more athletic than Pippen, but the gap is NOT even close to big. LeBron is bigger and stronger, but he doesn't use his strength appropriately. He can CREATE contact and finish, but respond to contact by posting people up? LeBron hates to post. Hates it. Pippen guarded positions 1-4 during his career and SHUT DOWN almost everyone he played. Larry Bird isn't athletic in any era and it really doesn't matter. He's used to play with severe athletic disadvantage and he still wins. Look at his battles with Dominique Wilkins. He would teach James that basketball doesn't have similarities to football when you playing smart competition.

Barkley and Malone versus Boozer and Melo? Huge advantage Dream.
LOL. Come on. Not only does Dream win this athletically, they just DOMINATE it skills-wise. Barkley was one of the most impressive athletes in the history of the game. More impressive than Jordan in my opinion. Any 6'5" or 6'6" guy who can play against Cs and win the battle is amazing. Malone is the super rich man's version of Boozer as it is. Barkley playing against Melo? How is it even close?

David Robinson or Patrick Ewing versus Dwight Howard and Bosh? Huge advantage Dream.
There is an athletic advantage here for Redeem because of the Bosh versus Ewing match-up. That said, Ewing would dominate the boards against Bosh and would easily score more than he gave up. Remember, Ewing was an All-Defensive team caliber defender. What is Bosh besides a turnstyle beanpole defensively? D-Rob is one of the most underrated athletes in NBA history. In my book, he's one of the five best athletes to ever play his position. Just watch him work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKVqpXl3M18

Dream TEAM or Redeem Collection of talents? DECISIVE ADVANTAGE HERE.
Dream Team actually had a TEAM that had multiple skill sets and abilities. Mullin and Bird are better snipers than anyone on our team could ever pretend to be. Their front-court had fast-break bigs, rebounders, DPOY caliber defenders, and some of the best post scorers in the HISTORY of the game. They had wings who specialized in scoring AND passing.

Bottom line is that the Dream Team is just better in every phase of the game: play making, passing, shooting, rebounding, scoring on the perimeter, scoring in the post, play recognition and reaction (IQ), and DEFENSE!

Most importantly they were simply more talented. They brought the best players in the game, no exceptions, at the time to the Team. I would say that the guys who aren't on this USA team have a good chance to beat the guys we do have.

PG: Chauncey Billups, Baron Davis, Joe Johnson
SG: Tracy McGrady, Joe Johnson, Danny Granger
SF: Paul Pierce, Ron Artest, Danny Granger
PF: Kevin Garnett, David West, Tim Duncan
C: Tim Duncan, Andrew Bynum, Chris Kaman

Nickson · by **Nickson** on Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:28 am

This is an almost impossible question to answer

Dream Team's big's would abuse the US down low

Jordan and Kobe may as well cancel each other out, but Dream would have no answer for Lebron and Dwyane

It would be anyone's game, but i would definitely be within a 5 point margin of victory

Greatest of All Time · by **Greatest of All Time** on Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:58 pm

Team USA 2008 is also the Dream Team and they would win because they have Kobe Bryant.

LDR · by **LDR** on Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:07 pm

Greatest of All Time wrote:Team USA 2008 is also the Dream Team and they would win because they have Kobe Bryant.

Your kidding, right?

GinoDB · by **GinoDB** on Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:41 pm

Porbem is the place of some great players in the dream team has been taken by NON-Americans so therefore, you can't put out the truly best players from the NBA cuz they can't play for team USA
for example, one of the best, if not the best center int he NBA is Yao, and hes Chines

Ras Algethi · by **Ras Algethi** on Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:56 pm

LDR wrote:
Greatest of All Time wrote:Team USA 2008 is also the Dream Team and they would win because they have Kobe Bryant.

Your kidding, right?

Just ignore him. His sole purpose on here is to create backlash for Kobe/ mock Laker fans by his over the top pro-Kobe remarks. Just read the link in his sig and post history.

fusechris · by **fusechris** on Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:19 pm

wow, i expected more realists on CL (envisioned a 90% dream team skew)

Biggest disappointments of the Redeem team: Howard, Paul, Boozer
Most encouraging performance of the redeem team: Wade.

L4L · by **L4L** on Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:24 am

Answer for James and Wade? Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, and Scottie Pippen. In any case, even if you truly believe Redeem would win on the wings, it wouldn't be by much. Dream had better outside shooters and was more cohesive as a unit (though 2008 is much improved from 2004). On the other hand, Dream posts would just JOB the bigs USA has right now.

Dream or Redeem?

Which team wins if the two meet for 1 game

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