D12 Discussion: Dwightmare over! (1139)

Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby Ariza3 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:16 am

gotta get him going against the hornets. didnt do much vs okc so i hope nash and kobe look for him really early and let him take some of the burden off kobe
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby escobar8 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:26 am

He played like big ben on offensive end...it was painful to watch...
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby JSM on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:19 am

Despite his struggles, you can't not get him one FGA in the 4th. I don't want to hear he was garbage up until that point, so why would you give him the ball? Nash and Clark had a terrible first half, both turned the corner in the second half. I agree with what Stephen A Smith said this morning, that wouldn't happen under any other coach, not even Mike Clown Brown. You have to get him at least ONE shot.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby JGC on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:23 am

JSM wrote:Despite his struggles, you can't not get him one FGA in the 4th. I don't want to hear he was garbage up until that point, so why would you give him the ball? Nash and Clark had a terrible first half, both turned the corner in the second half. I agree with what Stephen A Smith said this morning, that wouldn't happen under any other coach, not even Mike Clown Brown. You have to get him at least ONE shot.


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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby Doc Brown on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:28 am

It's hard to get someone the ball when they go to the opposite side of the court as the ball and stand there without moving.

No matter who had the ball last night or what was going on, Dwight would just stand and watch. Nash/Clark got going because Nash made things happen with the ball and Clark got open for easy looks.

It's like the guy was never taught a duck in or how to seal his man. He's a guy that is supposed to be commanding double teams, but that can't happen if he's ball watching.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:43 am

One thing is for sure, Dwight is not nearly as athletic as he used to be. He regularly gets outrebounded because other guys are more explosive then him off the ground (McGee, Ibaka, Faried, etc). That used to almost never be the case. I just wonder if he has permanently lost his amazing athleticism or if it's the back injury and he'll be more explosive next year. Right now, he's a very good player but not a dominant player because of this fact.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby lakersin4 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:09 am

Doc Brown wrote:It's hard to get someone the ball when they go to the opposite side of the court as the ball and stand there without moving.

No matter who had the ball last night or what was going on, Dwight would just stand and watch. Nash/Clark got going because Nash made things happen with the ball and Clark got open for easy looks.

It's like the guy was never taught a duck in or how to seal his man. He's a guy that is supposed to be commanding double teams, but that can't happen if he's ball watching.

Right.. I saw this too.. He was purposely taking himself out of plays.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby JSM on Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:18 am

Doc Brown wrote:It's hard to get someone the ball when they go to the opposite side of the court as the ball and stand there without moving.

No matter who had the ball last night or what was going on, Dwight would just stand and watch. Nash/Clark got going because Nash made things happen with the ball and Clark got open for easy looks.

It's like the guy was never taught a duck in or how to seal his man. He's a guy that is supposed to be commanding double teams, but that can't happen if he's ball watching.

Seemed like that was by design more so than Dwight running from the ball. Not at all surprising in a D'Antoni system. Using Dwight to clear space for others to operate on the other side of the block.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby Doc Brown on Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:24 am

If the play that is getting called is Dwight stand there and don't move than that is pretty stupid on the coach's part.

He can't duck in or seal his man to make the defense work?
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby John3:16 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:01 am

Part of Howards problem(s) are that, A: he gets stripped more than anyone, which doesn't show up in the box score for FGA, B: he does NOT roll hard to the basket after setting the screen and C: He doesn't have the personality to demand the ball. Couple those with his weak offensive post game and it's tough to go to him in the clutch. What I saw last night was someone going thru the motions, showing very little effort or enthusiasm for the game.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby Vasashi17 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:11 am

Kevin Ding: Asked if he was bothered by no shots after halftime, Dwight Howard said: "Yeah." Then after pause added: "But we've got to play through it." Twitter @KevinDing
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby therealdeal on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:16 am

He was pretty great in that first half. I thought he did a good job of trying to defend the paint and definitely of rebounding the ball.

But the team just doesn't look at him enough offensively. He's GOT to get more shot attempts than this. If for no other reason than drawing fouls on the other team. He's just got to get shots up.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby last stand on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:18 am

Very true. Our comeback and staying in the game in general was largely due to free throws. Getting the opposing team into foul trouble makes Kobe and Nashs life easier
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby Fatbeats on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:20 am

John3:16 wrote:Part of Howards problem(s) are that, A: he gets stripped more than anyone, which doesn't show up in the box score for FGA, B: he does NOT roll hard to the basket after setting the screen and C: He doesn't have the personality to demand the ball. Couple those with his weak offensive post game and it's tough to go to him in the clutch. What I saw last night was someone going thru the motions, showing very little effort or enthusiasm for the game.



I was just about to make point "A" as well. He had i believe 13 or so touches, not a lot, but you have to capitalize when you are dubbed the best center. he just seemed off yesterday, tired maybe. just a wierd game. I'm just really tired of clowns like Stephen A and BSPN trying to stir the pot and asking loaded questions. What they should ask him is, "do you think missing 6 shots from within 3ft of the basket affect your teams ability to go to you late in the game?"
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby Finwë on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:29 am

John3:16 wrote:Part of Howards problem(s) are that, A: he gets stripped more than anyone, which doesn't show up in the box score for FGA, B: he does NOT roll hard to the basket after setting the screen and C: He doesn't have the personality to demand the ball. Couple those with his weak offensive post game and it's tough to go to him in the clutch. What I saw last night was someone going thru the motions, showing very little effort or enthusiasm for the game.

I agree with this.

I keep reading tweets or posts where people go "Dwight should dominate now that Kobe's out" or "this is Dwight's time to really assert himself and score" and I can't help but feel that's wishful thinking at best. I usually have ZERO hope that he'll be able to "dominate" or anything near that on O. If he isn't being spoon fed, considering the current level of his offensive game, I just don't see how he can be a #2 option in a contender, let alone a #1.
He can't seal his man, his hands are more like Kwame's each day, he gets stripped extremely often, he has NO touch around the basket, he goes baseline without any shot of something good coming from it, he takes too long to move and has no "go-to" moves, his athleticism is diminished... AND he can't make FTs.
Other than drawing fouls and getting us into the "bonus" early (which isn't all that special since we're like 29th in the L from the line), I don't see any reason to give him the ball on the block consistently.
He needs to realize that he kinda sucks on offense now, he doesn't deserve many touches, and his role has to be defender, rebounder, hustle guy, lob-dunker / open dunk-layup finisher. Anything else is stretching it right now.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby therealdeal on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:31 am

I don't know if I saw someone not having enthusiasm for the game. I think he works really hard. But when he doesn't get a shot attempt in the entire half, I don't blame him for getting frustrated.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby Finwë on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:42 am

therealdeal wrote:I don't know if I saw someone not having enthusiasm for the game. I think he works really hard. But when he doesn't get a shot attempt in the entire half, I don't blame him for getting frustrated.

Doc Brown's post is a reply to this line of thinking. Was he frustrated because he didn't get touches, or did he not get touches because he wasn't working for them in any noticeable way?
That's the lack of enthusiasm or effort we were talking about, people who really want the ball put themselves in positions to get it, go set hard screens, roll hard to the basket, try for offensive rebounds, seal their man, ask for it consistently. Was Howard doing any of that?
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby JSM on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:43 am

A) he does need to catch it higher and not bring the ball down. By doing so he'd also cut down the number of times the opponents rack him over the arms and hurt his shoulder. But on the flip side no one can consistently deliver him a quality pass. Kobe can but he almost has to force it into his hands and that's when Kobe goes into super playmaker mode and doesn't come within the natural ebb and flow of the game. Not even Nash has been able to get him good looks. Sadly Blake has looked like the best at this so far.

B) I agree. I'm not sure why he's been setting such soft screens this year either. His screens have looked much much better since the all star break (excluding ATL and last night). I don't know if he doesn't think he can roll in time due to conditioning or if he's worried about picking up a foul, but Orlando Dwight was infinitely better at this, hopefully he'll get it back next season.

C) True. I don't expect that to change as long as Kobe is here. Not in the game at least, post game is another story. But at some point it falls on the coach to run a play or force him to get involved. If it looks like he's just going through the motions, you force his hand. He's too big of a part of this team and too vital to our success to wave off like that. I know it's not in D'Antoni's DNA to do that, but he's made other concessions this year, what's one more.

His post game looks extra weak thanks to injuries but he can at least get the opposition in foul trouble. And if you engage him a little and make OKC think they're not out there playing 5 on 4, it opens up the court allowing better spacing.

Furthermore do you think Dwight would have played the 4th without an attempt if Phil was the coach? My point is some of the onus has to fall on coaching.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:47 am

I keep repeating myself, but much of Dwight's post game is heavily dependent on his ability to post up.

He's too straight up and uses his arms too much. All he needs to do is bend down to create that space (this "no butt" excuse is utter crap), anybody can post up. I can post up against Shaq if I wanted to. He may destroy me, but I can still get into proper post position.

He gets stripped so much because of this also. There's no space between him in the defender. When he catches the ball standing straight up in the post, he has no vision of the court to see other defenders and where his other players are, resulting in the multiple turnovers he gets. Taller centers can reach over him and deflect post passes too.

Dunno why a guy like Darvin Ham is the one teaching him how to post.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby therealdeal on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:48 am

Finwë wrote:
therealdeal wrote:I don't know if I saw someone not having enthusiasm for the game. I think he works really hard. But when he doesn't get a shot attempt in the entire half, I don't blame him for getting frustrated.

Doc Brown's post is a reply to this line of thinking. Was he frustrated because he didn't get touches, or did he not get touches because he wasn't working for them in any noticeable way?
That's the lack of enthusiasm or effort we were talking about, people who really want the ball put themselves in positions to get it, go set hard screens, roll hard to the basket, try for offensive rebounds, seal their man, ask for it consistently. Was Howard doing any of that?

No, but he has been. I think he's already just frustrated in general that he's not getting enough touches. But when he gets SOME he works really hard (or has lately). Last night he didn't get ANY so he stopped doing the little things that he was doing before.

I'm with JSM, this is on coaching. We're not featuring Dwight enough right now. I'm not saying we need to feature him a lot, but something is better than nothing. D'Antoni has been better since he cut down the rotations, but he's missing this one for sure. When Dwight runs the floor, he's got to be rewarded. He does it a few times a game and doesn't even get a look. That's not okay.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby Doc Brown on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:49 am

Let's try to attack this another way....

Regardless of what the coach calls, would any elite center in the league past or present be ok with standing on the opposite side of the court for every possession?

Can you imagine Shaq doing that? Whether by choice or what the coach called, I'd bet a crap ton of money, Shaq or any elite center would be MAKING opportunities, not standing and making himself the easiest person to guard on the court.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby therealdeal on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:58 am

I don't disagree with you, but would you rather he be disruptive to what's been winning so far? Would you rather have Ron Artest out there who quite literally gets in the way of everything we're doing offensively?

When Kobe gets to the rim, the help comes from the weakside 3, not Dwight. In fact a lot of times he'll still be double covered. It's up to the other three to open up around the outside so that teams pay for doubling.

I don't know. I know what you're saying, I just think Dwight is trying to be a team player right now. And compared to what we were getting before, I think I'd prefer this.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby Center Court on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:09 am

Doc Brown wrote:It's hard to get someone the ball when they go to the opposite side of the court as the ball and stand there without moving.

No matter who had the ball last night or what was going on, Dwight would just stand and watch. Nash/Clark got going because Nash made things happen with the ball and Clark got open for easy looks.

It's like the guy was never taught a duck in or how to seal his man. He's a guy that is supposed to be commanding double teams, but that can't happen if he's ball watching.


Dwight is doing what is asked of him by coach..

If you want Dwight to duck in and seal his man, our coach should make that apart of this game plan.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby Doc Brown on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:14 am

I'm not saying he should be disruptive, but the more and more I watch him, I see that he just doesn't know how to seal his man or duck in for easy buckets. Even if the play isn't called for him, he doesn't have the awareness or the chemistry with his teammates to know when he should do that.

Clark and Jamison get easy buckets off the same play we run with Kobe getting the ball on the wing/post area because they know when to cut and move. Dwight doesn't know how to do that, so he just looks lost when he isn't in a straight up post up. He's athletic enough and strong enough to be able to get a lot of easy looks, he just doesn't work to get those looks.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: All in for L.A. (907)

Postby Doc Brown on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:17 am

Center Court wrote:Dwight is doing what is asked of him by coach..

If you want Dwight to duck in and seal his man, our coach should make that apart of this game plan.


I don't disagree that the coach is the problem, he's just not 100% of the problem.

Is MDA telling Jamison and Clark to cut for open looks or are they doing that on their own? Jamison has made his career off movement, regardless of the coach, and gets easy looks.

The coach isn't running plays for D12, but D12 isn't making opportunities for himself. So they both are at fault. Clark/Jamison do it, no reason D12 can't. With what MWP does on the court, I don't think D12 would get benched any time soon if he sealed his man and demanded the ball.
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