D12 Discussion: Dwightmare over! (1139)

Re: Dwight Discussion: new nickname - Chocolate Mamba (953

Postby JGC on Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:33 pm

Chillbongo wrote:
JGC wrote:
Lakers Advocate wrote:12 FGA's in game 1, kobe is gone, what's his excuse now for not shooting/scoring more?


Between him and Pau, they got 28 FGA combined. That doesn't happen very often when Kobe is on the floor. Our frontcourt is our biggest advantage.

It doesn't matter if Kobe is on the court or not, the ball needs to be worked through the bigs.


That's not true at all. If you're being precise, that is. And I don't think 28 is some magic number of FGA that results in better play.

I looked at the 9 game before we lost Kobe - not one game did those two have less than 20 FGA combined. In fact a lot of those games they had at least 25 FGA combined. Even the Portland game, for example, when Kobe exploded for 47.


Point is, frontcourt needs to get the ball a lot. Doesn't matter if it's Dwight one night and Pau the next. But together, they should get a lot of shots since that is our biggest advantage.

And what's not true? All I said was that Pau and Dwight do not combine for 28 FGAs very often when Kobe is on the floor. What is untrue about that statement?

28 may not be some magic number but I never said it was. "Lakers Advocate" was referring to Dwight's Game 1 numbers, specifically the 12 FGA. I was just pointing out that we should be looking more at the frontcourt's numbers collectively. In Game 1, they got 28, which is a number that doesn't happen very often when Kobe is on the floor.

There is no magic number. You try to play to your strengths as much as possible.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: new nickname - Chocolate Mamba (953

Postby Chillbongo on Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:39 pm

JGC wrote:And what's not true? All I said was that Pau and Dwight do not combine for 28 FGAs very often when Kobe is on the floor. What is untrue about that statement?

That's not true.

That's what I was getting at -- in the last 9 games, they were averaging 20-25+ touches a game. You were saying that doesn't happen when Kobe was around. I was trying to show you it does, even when Kobe explodes like he did against Portland for 47.

But I generally agree with your post. We should go into the bigs.

That being said, I wish Dwight was a skilled enough player to get 30/15.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: new nickname - Chocolate Mamba (953

Postby Rooscooter on Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:22 pm

JGC wrote:Point is, frontcourt needs to get the ball a lot. Doesn't matter if it's Dwight one night and Pau the next. But together, they should get a lot of shots since that is our biggest advantage.


Getting the ball isn't the problem.... where they get it (In Dwight's case) and what they do with it (Pau) is where the problems are.....

Most of the clanks from the outside come from a Pau pass when he's about 3 or 4 feet from the hoop.... Shots are his to take and he won't take them because he fancies himself as an "unselfish" player.... I wish the media and fans would quit using that term with him as if it's something good.... anytime you pass up a 7 footer shooting a 4 foot shot for a fade a way MWP 3 it's a bad thing.... not a good one.

Howard doesn't need to be fed in the post either..... he needs someone to break down the defense and feed him dunks.... otherwise he doesn't shoot over 44% from the floor.

It isn't like we can just toss it in to them and they can create a makable shot for themselves either. Howard just isn't that kind of player and Pau doesn't want to be.....
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Re: Dwight Discussion: new nickname - Chocolate Mamba (953

Postby LakerFanIam on Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:22 pm

Can someone please change this thread title???
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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby The Rock on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:18 pm

Look at the Memphis bigs, elite and in their primes, no other pair in the NBA is better than them and ours and yet these dudes are struggling to be effective...they have same problems we do, no outside shooting to space the floor, the defenses are sagging and just giving them minimal room to operate
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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby KBJelleyBean24 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:27 am

The Rock wrote:Look at the Memphis bigs, elite and in their primes, no other pair in the NBA is better than them and ours and yet these dudes are struggling to be effective...they have same problems we do, no outside shooting to space the floor, the defenses are sagging and just giving them minimal room to operate

Pretty much this, it's difficult to sore when they entire team collapses on you the second you start to dribble.
I should get an assist for that. It's an intentional pass to oneself, so it's an assist. That way people can't say all I do is shoot.
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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby S.R.05 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:28 am

The Rock wrote:Look at the Memphis bigs, elite and in their primes, no other pair in the NBA is better than them and ours and yet these dudes are struggling to be effective...they have same problems we do, no outside shooting to space the floor, the defenses are sagging and just giving them minimal room to operate


if they hadn't traded rudy gay, they would be a serious contender right now IMO. of course that's easy to say as a spectator, and financially i guess it made sense for them. but still, they'd take the clippers in 5 if they still had gay IMO
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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby Battle Tested20 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:40 am

:man10: @ the new title. I love it.
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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby lakersin4 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:11 am

The Rock wrote:Look at the Memphis bigs, elite and in their primes, no other pair in the NBA is better than them and ours and yet these dudes are struggling to be effective...they have same problems we do, no outside shooting to space the floor, the defenses are sagging and just giving them minimal room to operate

They're missing Rudy Gay iso, penetration, & shooting to keep the perimeter defenders from sagging.. We're missing the same from Kobe.. We have noone else that can do that except maybe Nash? He can still penetrate some & make the defense pay for sagging with the 3 ball. I don't really see it happening this season, he's yet another guy on our team that really needs an offseason to get right. Hopefully he proves me wrong.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: new nickname - Chocolate Mamba (953

Postby JGC on Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:53 pm

Chillbongo wrote:
JGC wrote:And what's not true? All I said was that Pau and Dwight do not combine for 28 FGAs very often when Kobe is on the floor. What is untrue about that statement?

That's not true.

That's what I was getting at -- in the last 9 games, they were averaging 20-25+ touches a game. You were saying that doesn't happen when Kobe was around. I was trying to show you it does, even when Kobe explodes like he did against Portland for 47.

But I generally agree with your post. We should go into the bigs.

That being said, I wish Dwight was a skilled enough player to get 30/15.


I said that 28 doesn't happen very often when Kobe is around. That's what I said (twice).

You said "that's not true, they get 20 FGA all the time when Kobe is around" which means absolutely nothing since I said 28 and not 20.

Would it be fair for me to take your statement and say "that's not true, they NEVER get 40 FGA combined when Kobe is on the floor"? No, it wouldn't since you never said that.

Not sure why you're saying something I never said, isn't true. I said 28. Is it true or not that their combined FGA is 28 or more, doesn't happen often? It is.
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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby FabFourLakers on Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:13 pm

Like others have said...if Nash, Blake, Meeks, MWP, Jamison and Clark are NOT hitting their open outside shots, this team is doomed. All Spurs have to do is collapse on Dwight and Pau, and dare our shooters to shoot. Nash Meeks and Blake absolutely have to hit their 3s....those are our only true shooters.
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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:23 pm

or...we move off the ball and get easy buckets. we can't live and die by the three. sure, we'll got hot a game or two, but that's not how rings are won.

this team needs to figure out how to get easy baskets and not rely on "making the shot". run pick and rolls, run weave plays. throwing it in the post and watching pau or dwight trying to work just allows san antonio to do what they want defensively. crowd the paint, and make you take lower percentage, long distance shots.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: new nickname - Chocolate Mamba (953

Postby Punk-101 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:45 pm

JGC wrote:
Chillbongo wrote:
JGC wrote:And what's not true? All I said was that Pau and Dwight do not combine for 28 FGAs very often when Kobe is on the floor. What is untrue about that statement?

That's not true.

That's what I was getting at -- in the last 9 games, they were averaging 20-25+ touches a game. You were saying that doesn't happen when Kobe was around. I was trying to show you it does, even when Kobe explodes like he did against Portland for 47.

But I generally agree with your post. We should go into the bigs.

That being said, I wish Dwight was a skilled enough player to get 30/15.


I said that 28 doesn't happen very often when Kobe is around. That's what I said (twice).

You said "that's not true, they get 20 FGA all the time when Kobe is around" which means absolutely nothing since I said 28 and not 20.

Would it be fair for me to take your statement and say "that's not true, they NEVER get 40 FGA combined when Kobe is on the floor"? No, it wouldn't since you never said that.

Not sure why you're saying something I never said, isn't true. I said 28. Is it true or not that their combined FGA is 28 or more, doesn't happen often? It is.


Just the facts, Ma'am:
Pau+Dwight FGAs with Kobe playing: (damn that was tedious! lol)
31,29,16,30,20,24,28,19,25,31,26,14,15,18,19,23,24,20,19,25,17,22,19,20,16,14,18,19,
14,20,17,17,22,19,16,25,20,25,25,21,25,28,26,25
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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby thkthebest on Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:49 pm

Uh...28 FGA? Why are we picking out such an arbitrary number in the first place?

Actually, how often do you expect that to happen? How rare do you think it is for even the average player to average 14+ FGA?

Of all the players in the league, only 34 players average 14+ FGA. That's nearly ONE per team, and you expect us to have TWO while having Kobe freaking Bryant on the team?

Let's take a bit further.

Of all the big men in the league, only 7 average 14+ FGA. None of them are on the same team. You expect us to have 2 of those 7...on the same team...while having Kobe Bryant?

Or to look at it another way.

Gasol's career high FGA: 14.9
Dwight's career high FGA: 13.4

Their CAREER HIGHS added together is 28.3. How often do you expect them to get 28+ FGA? How many times do you expect a 2nd and 3rd option to get 28+ FGA? That wouldn't happen often even if we had Magic Johnson on the team.
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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby Punk-101 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:58 pm

^^

I just looked up the #'s cause I was bored, BTW. I'm not arguing either way. I tend to agree with you, if I were to argue the 28fga point.
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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby LTLakerFan on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:12 pm

lakerfan2 wrote:or...we move off the ball and get easy buckets. we can't live and die by the three. sure, we'll got hot a game or two, but that's not how rings are won.

this team needs to figure out how to get easy baskets and not rely on "making the shot". run pick and rolls, run weave plays. throwing it in the post and watching pau or dwight trying to work just allows san antonio to do what they want defensively. crowd the paint, and make you take lower percentage, long distance shots.


Ding ding ding. We have a WINNER. Why is coach "cutting-edge-state-of-the-art-offensive-Guy" not demanding that they do more of this?? Jamison does it. Clark occasionally now does it-used to do it more I think....not sure. Dwight who would benefit most (lot easier and shorter run than P&R from top of freaking key), and who has the athleticism and foot speed almost ALWAYS vs the guy usually guarding him.....rarely does it, and most of the other guys on the short rotation list rarely as well. :bang: :bang:
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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby JGC on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:15 pm

thkthebest wrote:Uh...28 FGA? Why are we picking out such an arbitrary number in the first place?

Actually, how often do you expect that to happen? How rare do you think it is for even the average player to average 14+ FGA?

Of all the players in the league, only 34 players average 14+ FGA. That's nearly ONE per team, and you expect us to have TWO while having Kobe freaking Bryant on the team?

Let's take a bit further.

Of all the big men in the league, only 7 average 14+ FGA. None of them are on the same team. You expect us to have 2 of those 7...on the same team...while having Kobe Bryant?

Or to look at it another way.

Gasol's career high FGA: 14.9
Dwight's career high FGA: 13.4

Their CAREER HIGHS added together is 28.3. How often do you expect them to get 28+ FGA? How many times do you expect a 2nd and 3rd option to get 28+ FGA? That wouldn't happen often even if we had Magic Johnson on the team.


Scroll back. Someone made it a point to say that Dwight only got 12 FGA in game 1 of the series WITHOUT Kobe as if to say the bigs don't get the ball even when he is off the court.

But I responded and said we should be looking at the entire frontcourt FGA, not just one guy. And when you do that for game 1, it is 28 combined for Pau and D12. But it's not a number that occurs very often with Kobe ON the court.

That's all I said.

Chillbongo said it isn't true that 28 doesn't happen often because 20 does. Which, incidentally, makes no sense.
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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby LTLakerFan on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:21 pm

thkthebest wrote:Uh...28 FGA? Why are we picking out such an arbitrary number in the first place?

Actually, how often do you expect that to happen? How rare do you think it is for even the average player to average 14+ FGA?

Of all the players in the league, only 34 players average 14+ FGA. That's nearly ONE per team, and you expect us to have TWO while having Kobe freaking Bryant on the team?

Let's take a bit further.

Of all the big men in the league, only 7 average 14+ FGA. None of them are on the same team. You expect us to have 2 of those 7...on the same team...while having Kobe Bryant?

Or to look at it another way.

Gasol's career high FGA: 14.9
Dwight's career high FGA: 13.4

Their CAREER HIGHS added together is 28.3. How often do you expect them to get 28+ FGA? How many times do you expect a 2nd and 3rd option to get 28+ FGA? That wouldn't happen often even if we had Magic Johnson on the team.


:man10: NICE GET! But that doesn't work well for the Kobe shots too much contingent here. Even when he is trying his best to not shot too much until the game is slipping away and he HAS to shot more.
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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby LTLakerFan on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:25 pm

JGC wrote:
thkthebest wrote:Uh...28 FGA? Why are we picking out such an arbitrary number in the first place?

Actually, how often do you expect that to happen? How rare do you think it is for even the average player to average 14+ FGA?

Of all the players in the league, only 34 players average 14+ FGA. That's nearly ONE per team, and you expect us to have TWO while having Kobe freaking Bryant on the team?

Let's take a bit further.

Of all the big men in the league, only 7 average 14+ FGA. None of them are on the same team. You expect us to have 2 of those 7...on the same team...while having Kobe Bryant?

Or to look at it another way.

Gasol's career high FGA: 14.9
Dwight's career high FGA: 13.4

Their CAREER HIGHS added together is 28.3. How often do you expect them to get 28+ FGA? How many times do you expect a 2nd and 3rd option to get 28+ FGA? That wouldn't happen often even if we had Magic Johnson on the team.


Scroll back. Someone made it a point to say that Dwight only got 12 FGA in game 1 of the series WITHOUT Kobe as if to say the bigs don't get the ball even when he is off the court.

But I responded and said we should be looking at the entire frontcourt FGA, not just one guy. And when you do that for game 1, it is 28 combined for Pau and D12. But it's not a number that occurs very often with Kobe ON the court.

That's all I said.

LTLakerFan said it isn't true that 28 doesn't happen often because 20 does. Which, incidentally, makes no sense.


Uh oh! I must be really annoying you last 2 days. Sorry! But that "weren't" me. :man12:
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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby JGC on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:32 pm

LTLakerFan wrote:
JGC wrote:
thkthebest wrote:Uh...28 FGA? Why are we picking out such an arbitrary number in the first place?

Actually, how often do you expect that to happen? How rare do you think it is for even the average player to average 14+ FGA?

Of all the players in the league, only 34 players average 14+ FGA. That's nearly ONE per team, and you expect us to have TWO while having Kobe freaking Bryant on the team?

Let's take a bit further.

Of all the big men in the league, only 7 average 14+ FGA. None of them are on the same team. You expect us to have 2 of those 7...on the same team...while having Kobe Bryant?

Or to look at it another way.

Gasol's career high FGA: 14.9
Dwight's career high FGA: 13.4

Their CAREER HIGHS added together is 28.3. How often do you expect them to get 28+ FGA? How many times do you expect a 2nd and 3rd option to get 28+ FGA? That wouldn't happen often even if we had Magic Johnson on the team.


Scroll back. Someone made it a point to say that Dwight only got 12 FGA in game 1 of the series WITHOUT Kobe as if to say the bigs don't get the ball even when he is off the court.

But I responded and said we should be looking at the entire frontcourt FGA, not just one guy. And when you do that for game 1, it is 28 combined for Pau and D12. But it's not a number that occurs very often with Kobe ON the court.

That's all I said.

LTLakerFan said it isn't true that 28 doesn't happen often because 20 does. Which, incidentally, makes no sense.


Uh oh! I must be really annoying you last 2 days. Sorry! But that "weren't" me. :man12:


Bahaha. Sorry, you're right, it was Chillbongo, not you.

EDIT: I updated my post =)
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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:37 pm

Why are you guys even debating FGA with Dwight?

You can tack on +4/5 more FGA where Dwight gets hacked in the paint, tack on the 2-3 times he gets stripped during a game, those don't count as FGA either.

Yeah, I'm pulling these numbers out of my bum, but it's you can get a general sense of why a player like Dwight has a low FGA for being a "main option".

1. He's a poor free throw shooter. Give the man a 2-5 ft hook/dunk, or send him to the line where he's 49%.
2. Dwight doesn't have a solid repertoire of post moves and is quite predictable. He likes to gather himself before going up, exposing the ball and gets stripped (as we've seen all season).
3. An offense built around Dwight will consistently see doubles. More times than not, he will be passing it off.
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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby Doc Brown on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:42 pm

It's only a debate because when Kobe gets "X" amount of shots and D12 only get "X" amount of shots, it forces the team out of rhythm and they miss their shots.

It was very clear in the 1st playoff game, Kobe got "X" amount of shots and his teammates were out of rhythm and couldn't make shots.
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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby The Rock on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:46 pm

710 ESPN gave a stat....Dwight posted 11 times in the game, the Lakers scored only once. WELP
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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby LTLakerFan on Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:05 pm

Doc Brown wrote:It's only a debate because when Kobe gets "X" amount of shots and D12 only get "X" amount of shots, it forces the team out of rhythm and they miss their shots.

It was very clear in the 1st playoff game, Kobe got "X" amount of shots and his teammates were out of rhythm and couldn't make shots.


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Re: D12 Thread: Post Post Post otherwise we're toast toast toast

Postby Chillbongo on Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:20 pm

Punk-101 wrote:^^

I just looked up the #'s cause I was bored, BTW. I'm not arguing either way. I tend to agree with you, if I were to argue the 28fga point.


Thanks for the #'s....I pointed out that 28 was an arbitrary number as well. I'm not sure why that number was being used as a reference or why anyone would be caught up in defending a statement regarding that number.

What your numbers show, is that there were a ton of games that Kobe played in which Gasol/Howard averaged 20+ FGA....which means they were putting up a good amount of attempts. Thanks again
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