D12 Discussion: Dwightmare over! (1139)

Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby last stand on Mon May 20, 2013 11:42 am

I don't see the appeal in Houston. Harden is really good. Really good. Top 15 player borderline top 10

But parsons is just ok, lin and asik are average at best. Harden to me is a #2. He's not skilled enough to be a #1. He's a guy who does 3 things and does them very well. He shoots 3s, gets to the basket, and passes off penetration

He's not a post player(never will be he's undersized), not a mid range player, not a defender

He screams #2.

Dwight is a #2 as well, pushing a 1b

They would be competitive, maybe even reach the WCF but they won't win. To win it all you have to be transcendent. Dirk in 2011, Lebron, Kobe, Michael, bird, magic, the pistons and the greatest defense of all time, Hakeem, Duncan

These are the champions, there is a common thread, they are transcendent players. Players who change the game. Harden is not one of these players. Dwight is only borderline

Two probably #2s don't win titles

So would you rather not win in LA or not win in Houston.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby OX1947 on Mon May 20, 2013 11:53 am

Lakers are not screwed if Dwight leaves. Lakers arent winning it all next year unless they get a superstar this summer who can lower the pressure off Kobe. So, if Dwight leaves, Lakers will have 50 million to spend next year. Hopefully between now and then, some top notch talent prep to become free agency for then.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby revgen on Mon May 20, 2013 12:23 pm

OX1947 wrote:So, if Dwight leaves, Lakers will have 50 million to spend next year.


Where are you getting this information?
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby therealdeal on Mon May 20, 2013 12:34 pm

revgen wrote:
OX1947 wrote:So, if Dwight leaves, Lakers will have 50 million to spend next year.


Where are you getting this information?

I guess assuming Dwight walks and we do nothing about it?

We'd have 40 million though, not 50. Unless the Cap jumps to 60 million by the summer of 2014.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby revgen on Mon May 20, 2013 12:36 pm

therealdeal wrote:
revgen wrote:
OX1947 wrote:So, if Dwight leaves, Lakers will have 50 million to spend next year.


Where are you getting this information?

I guess assuming Dwight walks and we do nothing about it?

We'd have 40 million though, not 50. Unless the Cap jumps to 60 million by the summer of 2014.


Oh, so he means after next season. Not next season.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby therealdeal on Mon May 20, 2013 12:37 pm

revgen wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
revgen wrote:
OX1947 wrote:So, if Dwight leaves, Lakers will have 50 million to spend next year.


Where are you getting this information?

I guess assuming Dwight walks and we do nothing about it?

We'd have 40 million though, not 50. Unless the Cap jumps to 60 million by the summer of 2014.


Oh, so he means after next season. Not next season.

I think so. That's the only thing that makes sense, right?
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby pound4pound1 on Mon May 20, 2013 1:04 pm

so im getting lunch, listening to 710...have you guys heard this rumor about Dwight wanting Jeannie and Jim to switch so the Phil comes back?


Screamin A Smith keeps talkin as if there is some real steam behind it
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby therealdeal on Mon May 20, 2013 1:16 pm

pound4pound1 wrote:so im getting lunch, listening to 710...have you guys heard this rumor about Dwight wanting Jeannie and Jim to switch so the Phil comes back?


Screamin A Smith keeps talkin as if there is some real steam behind it

Smith just said that if that WERE to happen it'd mean Dwight would almost certainly re-sign.

If it DIDN'T happen, then chances are 50-50 he re-signs.

I don't know how much steam is behind it, but we've been saying for months that Jim should take the Pres. seat and just give Phil the VP seat. They both get what they want and Jim still gets to be Phil's superior.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby pound4pound1 on Mon May 20, 2013 1:22 pm

therealdeal wrote:
pound4pound1 wrote:so im getting lunch, listening to 710...have you guys heard this rumor about Dwight wanting Jeannie and Jim to switch so the Phil comes back?


Screamin A Smith keeps talkin as if there is some real steam behind it

Smith just said that if that WERE to happen it'd mean Dwight would almost certainly re-sign.

If it DIDN'T happen, then chances are 50-50 he re-signs.

I don't know how much steam is behind it, but we've been saying for months that Jim should take the Pres. seat and just give Phil the VP seat. They both get what they want and Jim still gets to be Phil's superior.



it would be an ideal situation but the thought of one player, not named Kobe, to command that much change within the Lakers is kinda unsettling
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby abeer3 on Mon May 20, 2013 1:40 pm

last stand wrote:I don't see the appeal in Houston. Harden is really good. Really good. Top 15 player borderline top 10

But parsons is just ok, lin and asik are average at best. Harden to me is a #2. He's not skilled enough to be a #1. He's a guy who does 3 things and does them very well. He shoots 3s, gets to the basket, and passes off penetration

He's not a post player(never will be he's undersized), not a mid range player, not a defender

He screams #2.

Dwight is a #2 as well, pushing a 1b

They would be competitive, maybe even reach the WCF but they won't win. To win it all you have to be transcendent. Dirk in 2011, Lebron, Kobe, Michael, bird, magic, the pistons and the greatest defense of all time, Hakeem, Duncan

These are the champions, there is a common thread, they are transcendent players. Players who change the game. Harden is not one of these players. Dwight is only borderline

Two probably #2s don't win titles

So would you rather not win in LA or not win in Houston.


I've been saying this for a while, but you did so much more efficiently here. if you're not winning the big one, what's the difference? at least the lakers can better sell the idea that they *may* be able to bring in a #1 at some point (given that they've done it quite a bit in their history).
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby therealdeal on Mon May 20, 2013 1:40 pm

My take is this:
if the Lakers WANT to do that, and I think it's VERY clearly in their own self-interests, then they should do it.

but the Lakers SHOULDN'T do it if it's from a demand from Howard. If the two happen to coincide, that's one thing. But they certainly should not do it FOR Dwight to stay. That's not his call.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby Rooscooter on Mon May 20, 2013 2:01 pm

abeer3 wrote:you think i hate harden when i simply think he's not as good as the hype.

i think you hate paul when you simply think he's not as good as the hype.

to me, the tiebreaker is public opinion. you'd be hard-pressed to find a gm, imo, who wouldn't trade harden for paul, age and injury history be damned.

also agree with realdeal regarding the 3rd year opt-out. the lakers can give him that, too, anyway. i hope dwight doesn't think he's as invincible as the media wants him to think. that last year matters, no matter how many times people try to diminish it. that's 30 million worth of security in a game where you can become a shell of yourself in one awkward landing.


Public opinion is only valuable in a Political Debate IMHO.

I can separate Paul's game and value from his lack of respect for the game and his fellow competitors. His game is lauded because "he makes others better". It's the fan cry of the perpetual failure IMO. Go back and look at the "team leaders" who've worn this cape of honor..... and look at their post season successes. Winning in the playoffs is about elevating YOUR game. He can pass the ball till he's blue in the face but until the guy on the receiving end makes the shot it's worthless effort. This is the primary reason I don't like ball dominant point guards who are not primary scorers nor do I like slotting MAX players at the 1 position. Add in the fact he's a poor defender and doesn't understand how to move without the basket ball and you get what you got.

Popularity in public opinion has nothing to do with it. If we followed that the Big Bang Theory would have been dead on arrival and AC Electricity would not be standard it is.....

If you mean Popular opinion in the sense that you get a larger fan base because of one player over another that's a considerations I guess, but just because a group of people believe one thing doesn't necessarily make it true.

The part of Paul's personality I detest has little to do with his actual talents..... it's the thought that a player of that "POPULARITY" predicates his mental efforts to cheating at the game. He premeditates it and is allowed to yap continuously to both the officials and the other teams at a rate that is beyond tolerance. I've sat at games where he was playing (with NO) in the past where he's saying personal stuff to the opposing team when shooting free throws that would make Kevin Garnett blush.... yet POPULARITY dictates that no one who hasn't sat court side at a game where he plays hears any of that. He's the most self centered player I've seen in many years. His entire persona is about his presence on the floor.... except when his teams lose. His presence has never brought a team together. If I was forced to take a point guard as the next "Star" to play along side Howard it would be Rondo and D-Will over him any day.... Rondo plays both sides of half court and elevates his game in the post season like few others.....

Finally, I'm no Harden fan as a team centerpiece... at least not yet. I don't much care for his attitude but he's still pretty young and has a chance at growing into more as a lead player. You mistake my equating the two as a slam to Paul and an elevating of Harden.... I'm doing neither because I've never been a huge fan of either player's game in totality. Add in Paul's lack of respect for the game and Harden's smug indifference and there's really not a lot to like other than stats..... which isn't popular.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby Rooscooter on Mon May 20, 2013 2:08 pm

therealdeal wrote:
pound4pound1 wrote:so im getting lunch, listening to 710...have you guys heard this rumor about Dwight wanting Jeannie and Jim to switch so the Phil comes back?


Screamin A Smith keeps talkin as if there is some real steam behind it

Smith just said that if that WERE to happen it'd mean Dwight would almost certainly re-sign.

If it DIDN'T happen, then chances are 50-50 he re-signs.

I don't know how much steam is behind it, but we've been saying for months that Jim should take the Pres. seat and just give Phil the VP seat. They both get what they want and Jim still gets to be Phil's superior.


Boy..... I just don't see Phil as a compatible coach for Howard. He had SVG eating out of his hands and still couldn't take a little criticism. He's completely melt down under Phil's mind games. The Triangle doesn't fit Howard either as he cannot really play the mid or high post that well either.

Nash is not a Triangle guard.... never was and never will be. It's a completely foreign system for him.... last year when we toyed with a similar system we rushed in MDA to get Nash back in the mix.

Finally, Phil's age/health would dictate he can only coach maybe 1 or 2 more years.... he's never been much of a "building" coach so what value does he bring to a team that could replace 10 positions between next year and the year after? Once again building a veteran Triangle team to turn over to someone else.....

Past is the past.... let it go....
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby therealdeal on Mon May 20, 2013 2:15 pm

Rooscooter wrote:Boy..... I just don't see Phil as a compatible coach for Howard. He had SVG eating out of his hands and still couldn't take a little criticism. He's completely melt down under Phil's mind games. The Triangle doesn't fit Howard either as he cannot really play the mid or high post that well either.

Nash is not a Triangle guard.... never was and never will be. It's a completely foreign system for him.... last year when we toyed with a similar system we rushed in MDA to get Nash back in the mix.

Finally, Phil's age/health would dictate he can only coach maybe 1 or 2 more years.... he's never been much of a "building" coach so what value does he bring to a team that could replace 10 positions between next year and the year after? Once again building a veteran Triangle team to turn over to someone else.....

Past is the past.... let it go....

Phil wouldn't be coaching necessarily. He'd be in Jim's VP role. Where we used to have a Triumvirate of Jim, Jerry, and Mitch, we have only Jim and Mitch. Phil would step into Jim's role and Jim would step into Jerry's.

Phil could coach a little, but it'd be more of an advisory role instead. We'd then bring in a coach that Phil could work with intimately like Shaw or Rambis or some such guy.

I think Nash would be just fine in a semi-Triangle system. He's smart, he's a capable passer obviously, and he can shoot from outside. What's not to fit? Howard would work well. Shaq couldn't play high-mid post a ton either and he worked fine. We would run almost the same sets we ran for Shaq but for Howard. The results wouldn't be as dominant, but they'd still be effective.

As for Howard under Phil, I'm not convinced that's an issue. Especially if there's another coach involved that limits interactions between the two. Howard has the utmost respect for Jackson, so I think he'd follow his orders more effectively than any other person out there. Phil has always wanted a piece of Howard in an advisory role.

It all fits a hell of a lot better than what we have now.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby Center Court on Mon May 20, 2013 3:04 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:Boy..... I just don't see Phil as a compatible coach for Howard. He had SVG eating out of his hands and still couldn't take a little criticism. He's completely melt down under Phil's mind games. The Triangle doesn't fit Howard either as he cannot really play the mid or high post that well either.

Nash is not a Triangle guard.... never was and never will be. It's a completely foreign system for him.... last year when we toyed with a similar system we rushed in MDA to get Nash back in the mix.

Finally, Phil's age/health would dictate he can only coach maybe 1 or 2 more years.... he's never been much of a "building" coach so what value does he bring to a team that could replace 10 positions between next year and the year after? Once again building a veteran Triangle team to turn over to someone else.....

Past is the past.... let it go....

Phil wouldn't be coaching necessarily. He'd be in Jim's VP role. Where we used to have a Triumvirate of Jim, Jerry, and Mitch, we have only Jim and Mitch. Phil would step into Jim's role and Jim would step into Jerry's.

Phil could coach a little, but it'd be more of an advisory role instead. We'd then bring in a coach that Phil could work with intimately like Shaw or Rambis or some such guy.

I think Nash would be just fine in a semi-Triangle system. He's smart, he's a capable passer obviously, and he can shoot from outside. What's not to fit? Howard would work well. Shaq couldn't play high-mid post a ton either and he worked fine. We would run almost the same sets we ran for Shaq but for Howard. The results wouldn't be as dominant, but they'd still be effective.

As for Howard under Phil, I'm not convinced that's an issue. Especially if there's another coach involved that limits interactions between the two. Howard has the utmost respect for Jackson, so I think he'd follow his orders more effectively than any other person out there. Phil has always wanted a piece of Howard in an advisory role.

It all fits a hell of a lot better than what we have now.


Jim needs to step back a bit and be more like Jerry.

His focus should be about how to keep the Lakers as the best franchise in sports. Let the basketball minds keep the Lakers the best team in the NBA.

Mitch and Phil are IMO in very similiar mindsets when it comes to building a team. They'll know what to go after and who to bring in. If Jim could focus on the evolution of the franchise, it'd be a perfect fit. When Jerry brought in the Laker girls, it changed the NBA. The theater style lighting, etc. That's the kind of stuff he and Jeanie should handle. Let Phil and Mitch do their thing and then in the end, Jim and Jeanie can be the final vote.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby The Rock on Mon May 20, 2013 3:19 pm

The more I think about what Stephen A said, the more I think this is coming from Dwight's agent...obviously Dwight is not gonna go up to Mitch/Jim & say fire MDA and bring in Phil...he's passive aggressive not to mention hes still a new guy & his reputation is already shaky... so his agent is probably letting this info out

I haven't previously thought about that 3 year opt out thing that SAS mentioned, sign in HOU 3 yrs for max opt out and then sign another 5 years.

Its almost an impossible scenario to ask Jim to step down ask Jeanie to take over with Phil by her side....Jim should just hire Phil as coach and be done with.

It makes Dwight happy for now but long term does present some problems since Phil wont be here for more than 1-2 years

Lets say if Dwight does leave, he is going into a somewhat promising situation for 2013 (since Harden/Parsons gonna be better...Pau older + Kobe coming off injury) and by putting Phil's name in the mix it goes back to Jim Buss as the fault guy and not Dwight himself for leaving LA


I'm always in favor of the player who is a piece to a championship puzzle...I hate to say it but we gotta fire MDA and bring back Phil as a coach, not front office (Thats a whole another mess)
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby The Rock on Mon May 20, 2013 3:44 pm

Jarrod Rudolph (Dwight's mouthpiece has turned on LA...he went on HOU's sports radio (97.5 FM) Dwight wants to win starting immediately, he's very interested in HOU

This is the same guy that was all over LA to Dwight (once Nets were ruled out as an option)

Look down his tweets hes arguing with Emplay

https://twitter.com/JRudolphSports
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby Rooscooter on Mon May 20, 2013 4:52 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:Boy..... I just don't see Phil as a compatible coach for Howard. He had SVG eating out of his hands and still couldn't take a little criticism. He's completely melt down under Phil's mind games. The Triangle doesn't fit Howard either as he cannot really play the mid or high post that well either.

Nash is not a Triangle guard.... never was and never will be. It's a completely foreign system for him.... last year when we toyed with a similar system we rushed in MDA to get Nash back in the mix.

Finally, Phil's age/health would dictate he can only coach maybe 1 or 2 more years.... he's never been much of a "building" coach so what value does he bring to a team that could replace 10 positions between next year and the year after? Once again building a veteran Triangle team to turn over to someone else.....

Past is the past.... let it go....

Phil wouldn't be coaching necessarily. He'd be in Jim's VP role. Where we used to have a Triumvirate of Jim, Jerry, and Mitch, we have only Jim and Mitch. Phil would step into Jim's role and Jim would step into Jerry's.

Phil could coach a little, but it'd be more of an advisory role instead. We'd then bring in a coach that Phil could work with intimately like Shaw or Rambis or some such guy.

I think Nash would be just fine in a semi-Triangle system. He's smart, he's a capable passer obviously, and he can shoot from outside. What's not to fit? Howard would work well. Shaq couldn't play high-mid post a ton either and he worked fine. We would run almost the same sets we ran for Shaq but for Howard. The results wouldn't be as dominant, but they'd still be effective.

As for Howard under Phil, I'm not convinced that's an issue. Especially if there's another coach involved that limits interactions between the two. Howard has the utmost respect for Jackson, so I think he'd follow his orders more effectively than any other person out there. Phil has always wanted a piece of Howard in an advisory role.

It all fits a hell of a lot better than what we have now.



Oh wow do I disagree..... first rule of business.... no in-laws!! If Phil didn't work out what then? It would tear the tenuous family relationships apart.

While Phil has been a fantastic coach he's not shown the same acumen in player selection or preferences. We'd be working with a 40 year old Kidd or broke down JO right now if Phil had been calling the shots.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Mon May 20, 2013 5:22 pm

The Rock wrote:Jarrod Rudolph (Dwight's mouthpiece has turned on LA...he went on HOU's sports radio (97.5 FM) Dwight wants to win starting immediately, he's very interested in HOU

This is the same guy that was all over LA to Dwight (once Nets were ruled out as an option)

Look down his tweets hes arguing with Emplay

https://twitter.com/JRudolphSports

I would hope Dwight isn't letting mouth pieces talk for him (again).
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby bigdog2013 on Mon May 20, 2013 5:25 pm

goodbye Dwight. I Dont think he is worth 120 million.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Mon May 20, 2013 5:35 pm

Steve Kyler ‏@stevekylerNBA 1h
RT @mhulicius: do you think lakers will take it seriously if dwight demands jeanie buss to take over for jim buss ---> No.


Steve Kyler ‏@stevekylerNBA 1h
RT @mhulicius: ---> Dwight won't be "demanding" anything... Lakers will present and he'll either sign or walk.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby khmrP on Mon May 20, 2013 5:37 pm

even though Screaming A. Smith got the Mia trio story right, I feel light he just says whatever he wants or feels like knowing theirs no repercussion even if its just something he pulled from his butt hole.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby abeer3 on Mon May 20, 2013 5:57 pm

ok, now i'm nervous. that guy is known to beat in touch with what Dwight's thinking, and he's basically saying he's going to Houston. no reading between lines required.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby JSM on Mon May 20, 2013 5:59 pm

Ramona Shelburne of ESPN wrote:The pitches he will get after the second leg of this journey, the ones that will likely come from Houston, Dallas and Atlanta, among others (after July 1), will no doubt be very different. And yes, he intends to listen to those pitches, and no, he won't give the Lakers an answer in advance of the beginning of the free-agency period so they can plan accordingly.

Each organization will have its own selling points -- the chance to grow alongside a budding star such as James Harden and be coached by Kevin McHale in Houston, Dirk Nowitzki's golden years and Mark Cuban's golden pocketbook in Dallas, the chance to go home again in Atlanta -- but the message will essentially be the same: "We can win here. But we need you to make it possible."

Not, "Just imagine what the Lakers can do for you …"

But, "Just picture what you can do for the Rockets …"

There's a difference between hearing you can be the next great player in a long line of them, and hearing that a team has been waiting in line for a great player like you for decades. And it speaks to why Howard has let the Lakers' pitch hang in the air for so long.

From the moment he got to Los Angeles, Howard has been trying to prove himself worthy of the franchise, not the other way around.

What needs to be spelled out is why the Lakers give him the best chance to win, which is the only way Howard can really change his legacy anymore.

At present, there are only whatever positives can be taken from the Lakers' strong second half of the season, and a promise to build around him starting in 2014 (when the contracts of Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol come off the books).

Oh, and that faith in the Lakers brand.

A brand, by the way, he already has worked hard to uphold.

It's why he returned from back surgery, against the advice of several of his closest associates, several months before he was 100 percent recovered. He struggled without his athleticism. He wasn't the same player. But with then-coach Mike Brown saying, ''he looks good to me" every day in training camp, Howard figured he could just play his way back into the kind of shape he needed to be in without causing much of a distraction.

Kupchak acknowledged as much after the season: "He could've taken the season off. I didn't think we'd see him until January or February. When we saw him in the first day of training camp, I was shocked."

But by the time Howard admitted just how much his injury was affecting him, right after the All-Star break, some in the fan base were grumbling. Sensing that Howard needed public support, Kupchak stood with him, going on Colin Cowherd's radio program to say that the Lakers still believed in Howard's talents and had no intention of trading him.

The gesture meant a lot to Howard and his mood and attitude brightened noticeably in the second half of the season. So too, did his play on the court.

But at that point it was too late for him to get credit for trying to come back from his back surgery so many months ahead of schedule. Lakers fans warmed to him, but cautiously. And now that he's not falling all over himself to proclaim his love for the franchise and commit his future to the Lakers, they seem to have cooled off again.

Kupchak and the Lakers players and management may be saying all the right things to Howard now, but the message he hears from fans is pretty harsh: Don't leave. If you do, we'll never forgive you.

Again, who is recruiting whom?

You can almost hear Rockets general manager Daryl Morey make his case from here.

Mark Cuban doesn't even need to leave the set of "Shark Tank" to come up with a plan to recruit against that.

It's pretty simple, really.

Dwight Howard has spent the past two years putting himself through hell to be in the position to finally decide what he wants.

Maybe now all he needs to hear is how much he's wanted.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Mon May 20, 2013 6:10 pm

abeer3 wrote:ok, now i'm nervous. that guy is known to beat in touch with what Dwight's thinking, and he's basically saying he's going to Houston. no reading between lines required.


Why nervous? If he left, then so be it. If somebody doesn't want to be in a Lakers uniform with the pressure & expectations, they can pack their bags & in this case head to Houston, Dallas, or Atlanta. I don't care. Would I like to resign him? Of course. I think he'll re-sign, too. However, I'm indifferent to what happens. We're not losing Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Kareem, etc. He needs to do what's right for Dwight. If he feels that's resigning or leaving to his preferred destination, that's his decision.
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