D12 Discussion: Dwightmare over! (1139)

Re: Dwight Discussion: D12 felt marginalized by MDA (989)

Postby Doc Brown on Tue May 21, 2013 7:02 pm

KEVIN DING ‏@KevinDing 1m
Kupchak said he is not concerned about that relationship and "absolutely" believes Howard and D'Antoni can grow a strong coach-star bond.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: D12 felt marginalized by MDA (989)

Postby Weezy on Tue May 21, 2013 7:07 pm

Vash, I agree that we only have 'yes men' at the top right now. Nobody is going to tell Jim no, and I definitely think he needs some guys that will after the last 2 coaching hires, somebody needed to step in and say "wait, just think about this for a little longer, or you'll regret it". Problem is I think Phil needs guys to keep him in check too, otherwise he and Jim would both be out of control and at eachother's throats. Lazenby points out as much in his tweets, he mentions Tex Winter all the time as a guy that counterbalanced Phil and his ego, how he treated Kobe, stuff like that.

Roland Lazenby ‏@lazenby 17 May
Tex Winter often confided to me he felt compelled to defend Kobe when Phil started in on him. If only I could hear what Tex had to say now

Roland Lazenby ‏@lazenby 17 May
Tex had his own criticisms of Kobe, but he always felt Phil was out of balance in dealing with him. Phil's way of playing to Shaq.

Roland Lazenby ‏@lazenby 17 May
If Tex hadn't been on that bench to balance out the response to Kobe, I'm not sure the Lakers would have won all those titles.

Roland Lazenby ‏@lazenby 17 May
The fundamental difference between Tex and Phil in dealing with Kobe is that Tex respected Kobe. Phil took years to warm to that notion.


It appears to me that these guys both need others to keep them from getting out of control with their own egos.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: D12 felt marginalized by MDA (989)

Postby JGC on Tue May 21, 2013 7:38 pm

Lakerman JSJ wrote:
The Rock wrote:We're pretty much in an impossible situation

- He wants Phil back but Phil says he's not coaching anymore
- He wants Jim Buss out but uhh ye Jeanie/Jim aren't gonna go against their dad's wishes and take out Jim

So I guess we're screwed then Lol unless Dwight/MDA can patch it up miraculously

Maybe Stan can save it?


You're going to drive yourself crazy if you have an emotional swing with each of these reports leading up to and during free agency. The only things we KNOW to be true:

-The Lakers play in LA. LA is a great place to live (especially for young charismatic millionaire athletes).
-The Lakers can offer Dwight more money and a longer contract than anyone else.
-The Lakers have won more games than any other franchise and their success historically (all the way up to very recently) is unmatched.
-Dwight apparently didn't love playing for D'Antoni, but things progressed better and you could see Mike shifting some of his offense to more of Dwight in the post (which he apparently wants). That relationship is not beyond repair (some of these dumb "sourced" reports have even said as much).
-Dwight just went through a nightmarish 16 months of crap with free agency being the payoff. He's going to listen to all offers and allow other teams to line up and "kiss the ring". This is going to lead to all sorts of speculation pulling Dwight this way or that way.

We really don't know anything else. Probably best to ignore most of the stuff that comes out because it's going to be from sources with agendas. Agendas that want Dwight in LA, or Houston, or Dallas, or Atlanta, or wherever. Nobody is unbiased in this situation. The smart money still is on the Lakers. And frankly, we'll survive if he chooses to go elsewhere. Don't need someone afraid of the pressure and spotlight to lead this great franchise back to the top of the mountain here anyway.


I agree the smart money is on the Lakers but, the idea of the Lakers being a winning franchise has everything to do with a factor that is no longer here. Jerry Buss. They weren't successful by magic.

While I will say I haven't completely soured on Jim Buss just yet (I think while his decisions have been suspect, he should be given more time before a final judgment is rendered) ... at the very least we can at least say Jim's abilities to continue the franchise's previously winning ways are... questionable at best, right?

So I'm not entirely sure how much of a factor the franchise's prior success will play, unless, you believe that success can continue under current management. If Dwight believes in Jim (which many fans do not), then it can be a factor in his decision to stay. But if not, then it is negated by Jim's position at the helm.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: D12 felt marginalized by MDA (989)

Postby The Rock on Tue May 21, 2013 8:01 pm

Sam Amick whos very reliable says...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2013/05/21/los-angeles-lakers-dwight-howard-houston-rockets/2349105/

Up is down and down is up these days in Los Angeles, where it's the legendary Lakers who are a hot mess and the Clippers who are no longer confounding.

The Lakers have a Dwight Howard crisis on their hands and are facing a summer that may wind up even more disappointing than their underachieving season. The big man who so badly wanted to be there, who pushed his way out of small-market Orlando in order to shine under the brightest of lights in the biggest of markets, is having second thoughts again as his free agency looms.


Despite all signs pointing to his Lakers return late in the season, the star whose infamous indecisiveness led to his Orlando saga being dubbed "The Dwightmare" is – according to a person with knowledge of his situation – torn between the idea of Laker life or the notion of joining a Houston Rockets club that looks so much more appealing with James Harden & Co. in tow. The person spoke to USA TODAY Sports on the condition of anonymity because of the private nature of Howard's process

Across the Staples Center hall, the Clippers' decision to part ways with coach Vinny Del Negro on Tuesday was the latest step forward for the once-woeful franchise. It was a calculated choice that will perfectly position them for the likely re-signing of free-agent-to-be Chris Paul this summer and years of Western Conference contention follow.

It wasn't an indictment of Del Negro as much as it was a reality of today's NBA, as talent rules all and parting ways with the coach was clearly a prerequisite to holding onto Paul after the Clippers fell to Memphis in the first round.

It was handled cleanly, decisively, with a clear vision in mind from all involved parties of both the player and front office sorts. It was, in other words, the opposite of everything unfolding in Lakers Land.

MORE: Top five destionations for Dwight Howard

The Lakers, who hoped Howard's return would help bridge the gap to a new era that could be kickstarted in the summer of 2014 when they have so much salary cap space and may not have Kobe Bryant, are flirting with quite a fallout here. General manager Mitch Kupchak had already urged Howard to choose quickly in the days after the season ended with a first-round sweep by the San Antonio Spurs, informing Howard that he'd be holding up the team's business if he waited until the official free agency period in early July to make up his mind.
But then came the criticisms of coach Mike D'Antoni that were kept quiet before, the passive aggressive claims made through the media that he wasn't used the right way on the floor or respected properly off it in their one season together. It presents quite the irony for the Lakers, who could fix their problem in one fell swoop if only they took the Clippers' tact.

But as Kupchak has long since made clear, D'Antoni isn't going anywhere anytime soon no matter how many times Howard wishes upon his LA star that Phil Jackson is coming back. The Lakers are far too proud of a franchise to take that route, far too hell-bent on not repeating a Magic Johnson-Paul Westhead moment from 1987 to take a page out of the Clippers' playbook and let their star call the coaching shots.

So while the Clippers look forward to the good times ahead, an era of top-notch basketball with Paul and Blake Griffin and their new coach in tow, the Lakers will be waiting on Howard while wondering if unprecedented struggles lie ahead. It's upside down day in Los Angeles, the new way of their shared world.



So MDA isnt going anywhere...Dwight could either deal with it or leave
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Re: Dwight Discussion: D12 felt marginalized by MDA (989)

Postby noobiew on Tue May 21, 2013 8:38 pm

Why our FO is so dumb and keep insist holding on on MDA, everyone know that MDA is not a good fit and a bad hire, just admit the mistake and correct it, I don't know why until today our FO still support MDA and wanted him be the Lakers coach, is this serious that the Lakers FO really considering keeping MDA over Dwight, that a very big risk there.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: D12 felt marginalized by MDA (989)

Postby Rooscooter on Tue May 21, 2013 8:53 pm

^^Well they may be dumb.... but a year ago they were the greatest FO ever..... step back a little and look at it over time.... not just bites every 30 minutes or so.....

Maybe they didn't see what they wanted in Howard and are willing to re-build with or without him. I'm sure they have plans for both possibilities. I think they would have to be dumb to let him play us like he did a lot of teams last summer with the same bi-polar crap he played out in the media before coming here....

That report instilled a little more faith in the front office for me actually..... and I don't like MDA in the least....
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Re: Dwight Discussion: D12 felt marginalized by MDA (989)

Postby The Original 81 on Tue May 21, 2013 9:01 pm

I don't recall Amick being that much of a reliable source, he's no better than the average columnist quoting his "sources".

Regardless, I find it hard to believe that our FO would choose Antoni over Dwight if given that ultimatum. And like others have said, I was hoping Dwight would use his leverage and force him out anyway.

I just don't like MDA as a coach, especially for this club.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: D12 felt marginalized by MDA (989)

Postby The Rock on Tue May 21, 2013 9:10 pm

The Original 81 wrote:I don't recall Amick being that much of a reliable source, he's no better than the average columnist quoting his "sources".

Regardless, I find it hard to believe that our FO would choose Antoni over Dwight if given that ultimatum. And like others have said, I was hoping Dwight would use his leverage and force him out anyway.

I just don't like MDA as a coach, especially for this club.


I think you have him confused with Sam Amicko...hes the one who makes up rumors

Amick is right on top of the Kings/Seattle thing. Been following him on twitter for 3 years now hes been spot on most of the time
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

Postby LTLakerFan on Tue May 21, 2013 9:16 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
abeer3 wrote:you think i hate harden when i simply think he's not as good as the hype.

i think you hate paul when you simply think he's not as good as the hype.

to me, the tiebreaker is public opinion. you'd be hard-pressed to find a gm, imo, who wouldn't trade harden for paul, age and injury history be damned.

also agree with realdeal regarding the 3rd year opt-out. the lakers can give him that, too, anyway. i hope dwight doesn't think he's as invincible as the media wants him to think. that last year matters, no matter how many times people try to diminish it. that's 30 million worth of security in a game where you can become a shell of yourself in one awkward landing.


Public opinion is only valuable in a Political Debate IMHO.

I can separate Paul's game and value from his lack of respect for the game and his fellow competitors. His game is lauded because "he makes others better". It's the fan cry of the perpetual failure IMO. Go back and look at the "team leaders" who've worn this cape of honor..... and look at their post season successes. Winning in the playoffs is about elevating YOUR game. He can pass the ball till he's blue in the face but until the guy on the receiving end makes the shot it's worthless effort. This is the primary reason I don't like ball dominant point guards who are not primary scorers nor do I like slotting MAX players at the 1 position. Add in the fact he's a poor defender and doesn't understand how to move without the basket ball and you get what you got.

Popularity in public opinion has nothing to do with it. If we followed that the Big Bang Theory would have been dead on arrival and AC Electricity would not be standard it is.....

If you mean Popular opinion in the sense that you get a larger fan base because of one player over another that's a considerations I guess, but just because a group of people believe one thing doesn't necessarily make it true.

The part of Paul's personality I detest has little to do with his actual talents..... it's the thought that a player of that "POPULARITY" predicates his mental efforts to cheating at the game. He premeditates it and is allowed to yap continuously to both the officials and the other teams at a rate that is beyond tolerance. I've sat at games where he was playing (with NO) in the past where he's saying personal stuff to the opposing team when shooting free throws that would make Kevin Garnett blush.... yet POPULARITY dictates that no one who hasn't sat court side at a game where he plays hears any of that. He's the most self centered player I've seen in many years. His entire persona is about his presence on the floor.... except when his teams lose. His presence has never brought a team together. If I was forced to take a point guard as the next "Star" to play along side Howard it would be Rondo and D-Will over him any day.... Rondo plays both sides of half court and elevates his game in the post season like few others.....

Finally, I'm no Harden fan as a team centerpiece... at least not yet. I don't much care for his attitude but he's still pretty young and has a chance at growing into more as a lead player. You mistake my equating the two as a slam to Paul and an elevating of Harden.... I'm doing neither because I've never been a huge fan of either player's game in totality. Add in Paul's lack of respect for the game and Harden's smug indifference and there's really not a lot to like other than stats..... which isn't popular.


I detest his annoying as hell brothers separated at birth commercials :disagree: :mad1: Plus a lot of what you said, never having sat at a game with him playing however.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: D12 felt marginalized by MDA (989)

Postby Cleansed on Tue May 21, 2013 11:05 pm

Weezy wrote:Vash, I agree that we only have 'yes men' at the top right now. Nobody is going to tell Jim no, and I definitely think he needs some guys that will after the last 2 coaching hires, somebody needed to step in and say "wait, just think about this for a little longer, or you'll regret it". Problem is I think Phil needs guys to keep him in check too, otherwise he and Jim would both be out of control and at eachother's throats. Lazenby points out as much in his tweets, he mentions Tex Winter all the time as a guy that counterbalanced Phil and his ego, how he treated Kobe, stuff like that.

Roland Lazenby ‏@lazenby 17 May
Tex Winter often confided to me he felt compelled to defend Kobe when Phil started in on him. If only I could hear what Tex had to say now

Roland Lazenby ‏@lazenby 17 May
Tex had his own criticisms of Kobe, but he always felt Phil was out of balance in dealing with him. Phil's way of playing to Shaq.

Roland Lazenby ‏@lazenby 17 May
If Tex hadn't been on that bench to balance out the response to Kobe, I'm not sure the Lakers would have won all those titles.

Roland Lazenby ‏@lazenby 17 May
The fundamental difference between Tex and Phil in dealing with Kobe is that Tex respected Kobe. Phil took years to warm to that notion.


It appears to me that these guys both need others to keep them from getting out of control with their own egos.


Yeah...Phil was definitely hell bent on using his Alpha / Beta dynamic formula on Kobe . The fact that it didnt work seems to be a thorn in his side even if it's a subconscious one. I cant imagine working for someone like that - someone trying to dominate your will (in fact i left a job in advance as i saw that dynamic starting to play out. I left while i was on good terms because i knew eventually i'd butt heads with the person and it would get nasty).
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby kenzo on Tue May 21, 2013 11:52 pm

We're stuck with Mike for 2 more years (he signed a 3 year contract right?). Enjoy it, embrace it... deal with it :freak2:
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby noobiew on Wed May 22, 2013 12:24 am

Damn even the Clippers actually know what they're doing by firing Vinny Del Negro to give them a better chance to resign free-agent Chris Paul.

While we in here decided to give priority and support to Mike D'Antoni over Dwight Howard LOL :freak2:
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Battle Tested20 on Wed May 22, 2013 12:31 am

Well D12 needs to understand that even though MDA may be back its pretty certain that he won't still be our coach 1-2 years from now. I mean I know we have MDA signed for 2 more years

So........
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby revgen on Wed May 22, 2013 12:35 am

noobiew wrote:Damn even the Clippers actually know what they're doing by firing Vinny Del Negro to give them a better chance to resign free-agent Chris Paul.

While we in here decided to give priority and support to Mike D'Antoni over Dwight Howard LOL :freak2:


Technically, Del Negro wasn't fired. This was the last season of his contract. Clippers won't be paying him to do nothing like we'd be doing with MDA.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Snake Eyes on Wed May 22, 2013 12:42 am

kenzo wrote:We're stuck with Mike for 2 more years (he signed a 3 year contract right?). Enjoy it, embrace it... deal with it :freak2:


I think if D'Antoni has another bad year, and I predict he will, the Lakers will be within their right to fire him at the end of next season. I feel that management is compelled to give him one full year, with an offseason and a full training camp, to prove himself.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby abeer3 on Wed May 22, 2013 6:46 am

dantoni just needs to sit down with howard and tell him that he'll coach to his strengths, first and foremost. to me, that would solve it. if he can't say that, he probably should be fired anyway, as the roster isn't suited to his preferred system.

btw, this is the second report that said mitch asked dwight for a quick decision (in order to help the team make their own decisions) and dwight refused. that's...not a good sign. if dwight were really leaning toward staying, you'd think he'd oblige and let them know one way or another. instead, he's playing footsie with houston and whining about the coaching situation in la (which, btw, is probably about 12th on his list of considerations).
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Pig Miller on Wed May 22, 2013 6:57 am

abeer3 wrote:dantoni just needs to sit down with howard and tell him that he'll coach to his strengths, first and foremost. to me, that would solve it. if he can't say that, he probably should be fired anyway, as the roster isn't suited to his preferred system.

btw, this is the second report that said mitch asked dwight for a quick decision (in order to help the team make their own decisions) and dwight refused. that's...not a good sign. if dwight were really leaning toward staying, you'd think he'd oblige and let them know one way or another. instead, he's playing footsie with houston and whining about the coaching situation in la (which, btw, is probably about 12th on his list of considerations).


i'm not sure i agree. part of the problem is that this roster isn't conducive to dwight's ability's. meaning there's not enough space/shots/touches/etc.

to me, it sounds like he wants to stay, which is why he even brought up the mda thing. if he didn't want to stay, he'd say nothing and just go.

he's essentially giving the lakers an opportunity to rectify the coaching situation without making an outright demand. also, no one commits to a job offer the minute he receives a call from the recruiter. might as well hear out what everyone has to say and see what we might do with the roster.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: D12 felt marginalized by MDA (989)

Postby JGC on Wed May 22, 2013 7:11 am

noobiew wrote:Why our FO is so dumb and keep insist holding on on MDA, everyone know that MDA is not a good fit and a bad hire, just admit the mistake and correct it, I don't know why until today our FO still support MDA and wanted him be the Lakers coach, is this serious that the Lakers FO really considering keeping MDA over Dwight, that a very big risk there.


Well, I think you have to consider the situation. If Dwight leaves, why would you go and get another coach? That would just be a waste of money. Might as well roll with MDA and figure out your roster plan.

If they fire MDA now to appease Dwight, and then he bolts anyway, then what was the point in firing MDA? So you can pay the next coach practically double just to lose? You can lose with MDA for half the price!

IMO, the domino that needs to fall is Dwight signing. If he signs, you have some options. You can roll with MDA for next year which IMO is a lost year anyway and start over in 2014. Or, you can fire him and get someone who will help get this team back to contention (which I personally do not believe is feasible next year given the roster, Kobe's injury, etc). Or, you can keep him and bank on the alleged success we had in the final 40 games when we went 28-12 and add training camp, health (relative health), etc to the mix.

This is why the Lakers want him to sign sooner, rather than later.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby JGC on Wed May 22, 2013 7:15 am

abeer3 wrote:dantoni just needs to sit down with howard and tell him that he'll coach to his strengths, first and foremost. to me, that would solve it. if he can't say that, he probably should be fired anyway, as the roster isn't suited to his preferred system.

btw, this is the second report that said mitch asked dwight for a quick decision (in order to help the team make their own decisions) and dwight refused. that's...not a good sign. if dwight were really leaning toward staying, you'd think he'd oblige and let them know one way or another. instead, he's playing footsie with houston and whining about the coaching situation in la (which, btw, is probably about 12th on his list of considerations).


Wait, did I miss something somewhere? You're acknowledging Houston as a viable destination for Howard now? :man4:
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Vasashi17 on Wed May 22, 2013 7:30 am

Weez, I agree that Phil needs to get checked too...and Tex was perfect for it. But now, who better to check Phil than his future wife? :man12:

Phil actually said it best on the Dan Patrick show: your owner and GM aren't supposed to be best friends, so I truly believe that you add a strong opposing view into the mix and you'll have fiery disagreements...but overall a better basketball product. Jim will check Phil cause he is the owner, but Phil would check JIm since, he's got the better basketball repertoire. Jeanie and Mitch would appease all parties and make sure it didn't escalate. But that brain trust would be much better than what we currently have in place.

If Dwight stays....great! If not, then next year looks to be a transition year anyways, so I'm sure most fans have dialed down their expectations. The summer of 2014 and even 2015, we can quickly rebuild post Dwight...which was hardly the fact post Shaq. We're in a good space moving forward, so I'm not overly concerned with our personnel.

But what makes or breaks us is our FO. If we remain the course, I don't care how many stars we have, our personnel won't be managed properly. The problem isn't Houston, Dallas, ATL....its up top. Whether Dwight stays or leaves, I just hope the FO gets exposed in some form. Fundamental changes need to be made there, before the roster IMHO.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby abeer3 on Wed May 22, 2013 8:01 am

JGC wrote:
Wait, did I miss something somewhere? You're acknowledging Houston as a viable destination for Howard now? :man4:


you missed something before, i guess. my only point was that houston wasn't an obviously better situation, long-term, and that their roster wasn't as good as people say. i still think those things. there's nothing special about that city, organization, or roster--unless they get howard.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby abeer3 on Wed May 22, 2013 8:05 am

Vasashi17 wrote:
If Dwight stays....great! If not, then next year looks to be a transition year anyways, so I'm sure most fans have dialed down their expectations. The summer of 2014 and even 2015, we can quickly rebuild post Dwight...which was hardly the fact post Shaq. We're in a good space moving forward, so I'm not overly concerned with our personnel.



if people are concerned that the lakers can't build around dwight with tons of cap space, why shouldn't they be concerned about building without dwight? again, we all saw the post-mj bulls. no stars, tons of money...and eddie robinson to show for it. the current generation of nba stars are generally spineless: they only want to play with another star. if howard leaves, the lakers are in for a very long rebuild.

and they're not going to be bad enough to get wiggins next year, either. not with every other crappy team sharing the same dream and tanking like crazy to achieve it.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed May 22, 2013 8:17 am

Snake Eyes wrote:
kenzo wrote:We're stuck with Mike for 2 more years (he signed a 3 year contract right?). Enjoy it, embrace it... deal with it :freak2:


I think if D'Antoni has another bad year, and I predict he will, the Lakers will be within their right to fire him at the end of next season. I feel that management is compelled to give him one full year, with an offseason and a full training camp, to prove himself.


We can fire MDA whenever we want, but it's the financial aspect of it that the Lakers don't want to look at again.

Luckily, Potato Head went to Cleveland and we're not obligated to pay his 2 year contract anymore.

If the Lakers do decide to hire a new coach, then they'll have to suck it up and pay MDA. If MDA gets another coaching job, then he's off the books too.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby 432J on Wed May 22, 2013 8:19 am

so the FO is choosing dan tony over howard

nice. that's like choosing a 1980 honda civic over a ferrari. if that's the true reason why dwight decides to leave, all hell will break loose
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Vasashi17 on Wed May 22, 2013 8:19 am

Abeer: Our management is pretty bad right now, but it still has our history to lean on. Plus, its LA. This new generation of ball player ain't like those warriors from past generations...I agree with you there. But its LA and like Bron choosing South Beach over his home in cold Ohio, we're going to get ball players that want to be the next king of LA once Kobe fades to black. By opening up a ton of cap room in the next 2 summers, LA can either pair another star next to Dwight or be in a space that ATL is in this summer, by opening up 2 max spots.

Don't get me wrong...I think bringing Dwight back is a must...but more importantly, you need to have a vision and identity and MDA ain't that guy. If Dwight is going to be your guy moving forward, then he should be more than a motion guy in a gimmick offense....but most importantly, he needs a good defensive environment around him that highlights his abilities. If Dwight is the guy, defense needs to be the utmost priority going forward.

So I'm ready to go either way....I would prefer the route to include Dwight, but if not, we have the means to get right back into the hunt.....but our most pressing flaw at the moment is ownership. You can shape a dream roster, but they have to not only battle the league, but themselves, if they are managed incorrectly. I don't want another situation where a talented roster has to win in spite of bad management. We need to change up top first, before we have any real shot at going anywhere.
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Vasashi17
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