Kobe the Closer

bruddahmanmatt wrote:

Rooscooter wrote:

trodgers wrote:I don't think Kobe is playing perfect basketball. I admit that he's making some questionable moves, he sometimes looks tired, and he's dogging it a bit on D. But I'm just saying he's not THE problem; in fact, I think he's playing better than maybe anyone on the team. He could improve, but improving this team isn't a question of Kobe getting better. It's sets, it's effort, and it might be another Guard.

I'm becoming convinced that our offense would be completely different with a threat to take it to the hoop on the team. We have absolutely no one that can get in the paint on a consistent basis. Just the threat of that opens the floor for so much movement, mismatches and open shots... At this point in his career Kobe would benefit from this more than just about anyone else. Making him the initiator after 15 years of being the complete opposite has left him seemingly confused at time and forcing things. WTS his play isn't our problem..... not at all....

Yes and no. His play isn't our biggest problem, and when he does things within his capacity, he's obviously our best player. However it's when he tries to do things he's no longer capable of that he F's us, especially down the stretch in close games. There was no need for that bomb three, five seconds into the shot clock @ 3:30ish to go in the 4th today. When he does things like that he absolutely becomes a problem. That's a dumb shot and dumb decision making on his part.

The bar of perfection is pretty high..... He didn't play well down the stretch.... that was clear to anyone watching except the serious jockers. He did however make a shot at the end. In balance he did get us the win.... if he had played better down the stretch we wouldn't have needed the shot at the end, but then his better play down the stretch would have been the difference.... right. It seems like overanalyzing to me....... especially when Fisher and Blake looks like Ghost Rider out there trying guard Jose Freakin Calderon....

Kobe never really played smart in the regular season. You think he's gonna change now? Fact is, you live and die with Kobe. If he's shooting a percentage well above 50% but all his makes are turnaround fadeaways on double teams, do you still criticize him? No, so just trust the guy and focus on our other holes

Rooscooter wrote:

bruddahmanmatt wrote:Yes and no. His play isn't our biggest problem, and when he does things within his capacity, he's obviously our best player. However it's when he tries to do things he's no longer capable of that he F's us, especially down the stretch in close games. There was no need for that bomb three, five seconds into the shot clock @ 3:30ish to go in the 4th today. When he does things like that he absolutely becomes a problem. That's a dumb shot and dumb decision making on his part.

The bar of perfection is pretty high..... He didn't play well down the stretch.... that was clear to anyone watching except the serious jockers. He did however make a shot at the end. In balance he did get us the win.... if he had played better down the stretch we wouldn't have needed the shot at the end, but then his better play down the stretch would have been the difference.... right. It seems like overanalyzing to me....... especially when Fisher and Blake looks like Ghost Rider out there trying guard Jose Freakin Calderon....

Like I said, it's not so much the "what" as it is the "how". I could excuse good looks that he simply missed, but taking bad shots that put your team into a hole is inexcusable. We got away with what we got away with today because we were playing the Raps...didn't work so well against the Sixers though.

scheven wrote:Kobe never really played smart in the regular season. You think he's gonna change now? Fact is, you live and die with Kobe. If he's shooting a percentage well above 50% but all his makes are turnaround fadeaways on double teams, do you still criticize him? No, so just trust the guy and focus on our other holes

QFT That's my philosophy.

Game winner today?

JGC wrote:What's funny is that we don't have soft, timid players at all. We actually have some tough and tough minded players.

I think he meant basketball wise soft and timid, like, ocasionally losing confidence in their shots, or like settling for jumpers instead of using their bodies and taking it to the basket (Pau especially, and sometimes Drew chooses that little hook of his over a power move and dunk or banker).

trodgers wrote:

JGC wrote:Let's see how many people have a case of short term memory around here. Hahaha.

So, miss 5 then make 2 down the stretch = a closer? Hmmm.... not sure about that. It was though, really, really relieving to see Kobe hit a game winner again after not seeing one for a couple years. But overall he did a terrible job closing the game out.

That missed 3 was the worst, what the heck was he thinking????

Do X for much of the game, then do Y. This doesn't make the player Y.

Example 1:
Play poorly for much of the game, then hit a clutch bucket, get the steal, hit the FT. This doesn't mean he played a good game.

Example 2:
Play a good game until the end. Then miss some shots. This doesn't mean he played a bad game.

Now, you seem happy to accept Example 1 as legit but not Example 2.

Wow, that is very broad. We're talking here about a closer. The reason Kobe wouldn't really get the credit for "closing" this game, is the same reason that in baseball (from where I suspect the term closer in basketball is derived), a pitcher is not credited for a save, if he pitches himself into a save situation.

Actually, if we're going to use baseball as an analogy, Kobe should get credit for a win and a blown save. I think that sums it up perfectly actually. We had a lead, Kobe took it upon himself basically to blow the lead, but was able to eek out a win against one of the worst teams in the NBA. But blown saves aren't the mark of a good closer.

But like I said before, even though Kobe was rancid down the stretch, it was nice to see that he is still capable of hitting game-winning buckets because it's been years since he's had one and I was getting tired of seeing Pau and Bynum have to constantly clean up his misses.

JGC wrote:That missed 3 was the worst, what the heck was he thinking????

he was thinking the same as he was thinking when he shot the next 3, which he made and cut the lead to 1, that it was a shot he could make, a shot that would be huge, and a shot that would turn things around. He missed it, not badly, just missed it, which happens sometimes.

I can remember SEVERAL similar plays from many other stars in big moments. D-wade in game 2 of the finals for example, tried to break the mavs momentum with a 3. it didn't go in. Kobe's 3 against the Magic in the finals (game 5), where he saw they were gaining momentum and decided to kill it. Kevin Durant does it all the time. Carmelo Anthony the same. Dirk Nowitzki does it too. So does Paul Pierce. So does Billups. So does Deron Williams. So does Joe Johnson, and Jamal Crawford, and Jason Terry. So do most great closers: they take big shots, shots that can change games. Sometimes they don't fall. But at the end of the day, the guy willing to take big shots is usually the guy who gets the trophy. Just ask LeBron. He doesn't take those "iladvised" 3s to break momentum, he's an efficient player. He also doesn't win

biggestkobefanever wrote:

JGC wrote:That missed 3 was the worst, what the heck was he thinking????

he was thinking the same as he was thinking when he shot the next 3, which he made and cut the lead to 1, that it was a shot he could make, a shot that would be huge, and a shot that would turn things around. He missed it, not badly, just missed it, which happens sometimes.

I can remember SEVERAL similar plays from many other stars in big moments. D-wade in game 2 of the finals for example, tried to break the mavs momentum with a 3. it didn't go in. Kobe's 3 against the Magic in the finals (game 5), where he saw they were gaining momentum and decided to kill it. Kevin Durant does it all the time. Carmelo Anthony the same. Dirk Nowitzki does it too. So does Paul Pierce. So does Billups. So does Deron Williams. So does Joe Johnson, and Jamal Crawford, and Jason Terry. So do most great closers: they take big shots, shots that can change games. Sometimes they don't fall. But at the end of the day, the guy willing to take big shots is usually the guy who gets the trophy. Just ask LeBron. He doesn't take those "iladvised" 3s to break momentum, he's an efficient player. He also doesn't win

You have got to be the biggest Kobe fan ever.

revgen wrote:I don't mind him "closing" if it's anything besides ISO's. Do a Reggie Miller curl screen or do a simple P&R with Pau. Do postups in the mid-post. Anything besides ISO's.

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Like that's always Kobe's decision. That's actually the coaching staff's job! They have to design an offense that brings out the most out of the talent they manage. This offense thas nothing of the sort.
I agree Kobe would be more effective in the post, or coming out of a screen, or in P&R situations, but I don't blame him for resulting to ISO's instead; I blame the coach who decides the last few plays are ISO's, who decides not to go with what has proven to work time and time again. It's not the players fault, it's the coaches'

JGC wrote:

biggestkobefanever wrote:

JGC wrote:That missed 3 was the worst, what the heck was he thinking????

he was thinking the same as he was thinking when he shot the next 3, which he made and cut the lead to 1, that it was a shot he could make, a shot that would be huge, and a shot that would turn things around. He missed it, not badly, just missed it, which happens sometimes.

I can remember SEVERAL similar plays from many other stars in big moments. D-wade in game 2 of the finals for example, tried to break the mavs momentum with a 3. it didn't go in. Kobe's 3 against the Magic in the finals (game 5), where he saw they were gaining momentum and decided to kill it. Kevin Durant does it all the time. Carmelo Anthony the same. Dirk Nowitzki does it too. So does Paul Pierce. So does Billups. So does Deron Williams. So does Joe Johnson, and Jamal Crawford, and Jason Terry. So do most great closers: they take big shots, shots that can change games. Sometimes they don't fall. But at the end of the day, the guy willing to take big shots is usually the guy who gets the trophy. Just ask LeBron. He doesn't take those "iladvised" 3s to break momentum, he's an efficient player. He also doesn't win

You have got to be the biggest Kobe fan ever.

this has nothing to do with being a kobe fan or not, it's about not asking the best players in the world to walk away from what defines them. In this case, it's Kobe.
You can't ask Kobe Bryant, who has played 16 seasons, and has achieved everything that can be achieved on a basketball court , to suddenly turn off the so called "killer instinct" that has made him so succesful, tell him not to take the big shot, and maybe give it up to someone like Pau (who played like crap in the second half).

biggestkobefanever wrote:

JGC wrote:You have got to be the biggest Kobe fan ever.

this has nothing to do with being a kobe fan or not, it's about not asking the best players in the world to walk away from what defines them. In this case, it's Kobe.
You can't ask Kobe Bryant, who has played 16 seasons, and has achieved everything that can be achieved on a basketball court , to suddenly turn off the so called "killer instinct" that has made him so succesful, tell him not to take the big shot, and maybe give it up to someone like Pau (who played like crap in the second half).

That was a joke because of your screen name on here.

And as a closer, I expect and ask Kobe to make plays that help the team hold on to a win or come back and get the win. Making plays doesn't always mean taking bad shots. Sometimes, it can be making a pass. And sometimes, it can mean pass the ball, run off the ball, get the ball back and take a better shot.

Are you saying that if Kobe Bryant is quintuple teamed well beyond the 3pt line, that it's not fair to ask him to pass it to the guy standing by himself under the basket? That he should take that shot because that's who he is?

JGC wrote:Are you saying that if Kobe Bryant is quintuple teamed well beyond the 3pt line, that it's not fair to ask him to pass it to the guy standing by himself under the basket? That he should take that shot because that's who he is?

honestly with this team kobe taking that shot would probably be a higher percentage play than if he passed it to someone else

Ariza68 wrote:

trodgers wrote:Playing poorly is as much a matter of how one does it as it is how things end up. Kobe takes tough shots. Kobe doesn't always trust his teammates. But taking tough shots and not trusting teammates are sometimes the right thing to do.

Agree. Sometimes instead of trusting his teammates he better goes through sequences like this:

(82 - 78) 05:14 Bryant jump shot: missed
(82 - 81) 04:34 Bryant Running Jump Shot: Missed
(84 - 81) 04:04 Bryant Driving Reverse Layup Shot: Missed Block: Gray (1 BLK)
(84 - 81) 03:32 Bryant 3pt Shot: Missed
(84 - 84) 02:56 Bryant Jump Shot: Missed
(84 - 86) 02:22 Bryant Turnaround Fadeaway shot: Missed

Real talk, man. Get it to Gasol! 1 for his last 8. Gettin' it done! Inside presence. A dude Kobe can go to in crunch time.

Ariza68 wrote:

trodgers wrote:Playing poorly is as much a matter of how one does it as it is how things end up. Kobe takes tough shots. Kobe doesn't always trust his teammates. But taking tough shots and not trusting teammates are sometimes the right thing to do.

Agree. Sometimes instead of trusting his teammates he better goes through sequences like this:

(82 - 78) 05:14 Bryant jump shot: missed
(82 - 81) 04:34 Bryant Running Jump Shot: Missed
(84 - 81) 04:04 Bryant Driving Reverse Layup Shot: Missed Block: Gray (1 BLK)
(84 - 81) 03:32 Bryant 3pt Shot: Missed
(84 - 84) 02:56 Bryant Jump Shot: Missed
(84 - 86) 02:22 Bryant Turnaround Fadeaway shot: Missed

We got luck this game. Kobe almost lost us another game. But we won't go far with this game style. Especially in last few mins of the close game, ALL shots will be taken by Kobe is a trend...9 players are just watching the ball IN or OUT.

biggestkobefanever wrote:

revgen wrote:I don't mind him "closing" if it's anything besides ISO's. Do a Reggie Miller curl screen or do a simple P&R with Pau. Do postups in the mid-post. Anything besides ISO's.

Like that's always Kobe's decision. That's actually the coaching staff's job! They have to design an offense that brings out the most out of the talent they manage. This offense thas nothing of the sort.
I agree Kobe would be more effective in the post, or coming out of a screen, or in P&R situations, but I don't blame him for resulting to ISO's instead; I blame the coach who decides the last few plays are ISO's, who decides not to go with what has proven to work time and time again. It's not the players fault, it's the coaches'

I honestly don't care who decides to do these ISO's. Just stop doing it!

biggestkobefanever wrote:

revgen wrote:I don't mind him "closing" if it's anything besides ISO's. Do a Reggie Miller curl screen or do a simple P&R with Pau. Do postups in the mid-post. Anything besides ISO's.

Like that's always Kobe's decision. That's actually the coaching staff's job! They have to design an offense that brings out the most out of the talent they manage. This offense thas nothing of the sort.
I agree Kobe would be more effective in the post, or coming out of a screen, or in P&R situations, but I don't blame him for resulting to ISO's instead; I blame the coach who decides the last few plays are ISO's, who decides not to go with what has proven to work time and time again. It's not the players fault, it's the coaches'

How do you know the coach decided that the last few plays should be ISOs? I think you're making that up to deflect the responsibility off of Kobe.

If it's never Kobe's fault when the offense stalls or performs poorly, then it can't possibly be his doing when it performs well can it?

Coach Brown is actually the one who needs to know how to close.

Anyone have Synergy stats on how bad Kobe's iso stats are? He used to be the best, but how bad is he this season?

thkthebest wrote:Anyone have Synergy stats on how bad Kobe's iso stats are? He used to be the best, but how bad is he this season?

Kobe is 77 out of 207 (37.2 FG%) in Iso situations this season.

^^ BTW, Pau is 17/33 for 52%

all i can say is i used to get mad when kobe would take his trademark F' it 3, or take a tough double teamed shot...

but with how bad our team is shooting this season i honestly feel were better off with him. as some have said its live or die by kobe.

i can only imagine how we would have been with cp3

JGC wrote:

biggestkobefanever wrote:

revgen wrote:I don't mind him "closing" if it's anything besides ISO's. Do a Reggie Miller curl screen or do a simple P&R with Pau. Do postups in the mid-post. Anything besides ISO's.

Like that's always Kobe's decision. That's actually the coaching staff's job! They have to design an offense that brings out the most out of the talent they manage. This offense thas nothing of the sort.
I agree Kobe would be more effective in the post, or coming out of a screen, or in P&R situations, but I don't blame him for resulting to ISO's instead; I blame the coach who decides the last few plays are ISO's, who decides not to go with what has proven to work time and time again. It's not the players fault, it's the coaches'

How do you know the coach decided that the last few plays should be ISOs? I think you're making that up to deflect the responsibility off of Kobe.

If it's never Kobe's fault when the offense stalls or performs poorly, then it can't possibly be his doing when it performs well can it?

Are you kidding? What do coaches do if not decide what offense and what defense to run? Of course it's the coaches decision, what do you think they talk about during time outs? I don't believe Mike Brown calls for a time out, sets up a play for say Gasol and then suddenly every player decides to ignore him (every time in the 4th, every close game) and just go with an ISO for Kobe. That's not how this league works. There's a reason why Mike Brown is getting like 5 M a year, why we hired Messina, why we have Kuester and Persons: so they can COACH the team. Coaching implies, among other things, to decide what kind of an offense to run at the end of close games.

biggestkobefanever wrote:

JGC wrote:How do you know the coach decided that the last few plays should be ISOs? I think you're making that up to deflect the responsibility off of Kobe.

If it's never Kobe's fault when the offense stalls or performs poorly, then it can't possibly be his doing when it performs well can it?

Are you kidding? What do coaches do if not decide what offense and what defense to run? Of course it's the coaches decision, what do you think they talk about during time outs? I don't believe Mike Brown calls for a time out, sets up a play for say Gasol and then suddenly every player decides to ignore him (every time in the 4th, every close game) and just go with an ISO for Kobe. That's not how this league works. There's a reason why Mike Brown is getting like 5 M a year, why we hired Messina, why we have Kuester and Persons: so they can COACH the team. Coaching implies, among other things, to decide what kind of an offense to run at the end of close games.

So wait, just to get this all clear because you're all over the map here. Earlier, when a bunch of people were wondering what Kobe was thinking taking that missed 3 you said:

he was thinking the same as he was thinking when he shot the next 3, which he made and cut the lead to 1, that it was a shot he could make, a shot that would be huge, and a shot that would turn things around. He missed it, not badly, just missed it, which happens sometimes.

You're saying Kobe wasn't thinking anything right. He was just doing what Mike Brown told him to do. Why aren't you giving Mike Brown credit for drawing all that up offensively? I haven't heard you once praise Mike Brown's clutch offense schemes down the stretch for the win against the Raptors. Why not? You don't think Kobe went out on his own right? You think he was just doing what he was told, right?

The bottom line is that players don't always execute the way their coaches want. That's why coaches call timeouts. I'm not saying Mike Brown gets a free pass here either, but none of what you're saying makes a whole lot of sense.

- When Kobe struggles, it's all on the coaches.
- When Kobe succeeds, it's all on Kobe.
- But you said Kobe never ignores the coaching staff, so when he struggles, why isn't it on him for not executing the way the coaches told him to?

JGC wrote:So, miss 5 then make 2 down the stretch = a closer? Hmmm.... not sure about that.

You'd probably enjoy a player like LeBron more. Great for 3 quarters and then is literally afraid to touch the ball in the 4th quarter, let alone shoot it. Fun and games until the Finals. have fun with that.