Mitch Kupchak

And with my apologies to Sky, I will say the same thing I have said to him and many of you.

A rare few of you, have managed to articulate and support a possible plan for improving the team BEFORE any deals and picks were made. 99% of the stuff tossed out there was pipe. Except for Sky, none of you has even come close to presenting a plan that actually may have put together a playoff team after the Shaq trade. (And please don’t say the Shaq trade was Mitch’s fault). So, based on this Sky is either pretty lucky or pretty smart. My guess is the latter.

However not even Sky is privy to all that goes on within the organization (who made what decisions and why) and therefore not confined to the same restrictions and situations Mitch is. Without that type of detail, none of you is in a position to be take seriously when you act like you know all about it. (Sky, you always qualify your positions, which I respectfully appreciate.)

However, the bottom line is that Dr. Buss, is a very successful businessman. He owns the Lakers and is not in it to loose money. He has demonstrated over and over again his desire and willingness to keep the Lakers the premier sports franchise.

Dr. Buss has stated that Mitch is an excellent GM. So either he is lying or he actually thinks Mitch is doing well. You have no other rational choice here.

I think Buss thinks Mitch is a good GM because Mitch is still employed. Buss is not in this to loose money or credibility.

Therefore, if Buss thinks Mitch is a good GM and you think he sucks, I’ll take Buss’ opinion on this issue every time.

Simply stated, Buss is smarter and more experienced in this area than you are, so his opinion counts more.

You can yell and scream “Mitch is an idiot” all you want. But some of you think that the louder you say it the more true it becomes.

But, if you really want someone to hear you, support your position with real solutions and show your credentials.

So announcing that the Lakers will listen to offers for Shaq B4 his whole ordeal was public, is good GM"ing eliminating any semblance of leverage?

I never heard or read anywhere where Kup- was making a play for MJames when he was being traded from detroit. ESPECIALLY since Larry Brown even said his D in the finals against us would be missed.

Buss pays Kup to be in the KNOW of you is what. FA/Draft etc. For a team that needed help we took a flyer.

Our 1st good draft pick in YEARS and Kup got us a maybe. The draft is all maybes, but Bynum is a much bigger maybe than most.

Me, if I was drafting would have taken Granger or Charlie V. If our drafts werent so horrific we wouldnt need to be begging for scraps at the trade deadlines

So i understand your rant, on how Kup knows better than we, but does that validate his GM skills? So Kup being GM and Buss having full faith in him payed a coach X-amount of $$$$$ last year, and he quit. Kup drafted a guy who luckily for Ronnie first, team second that his heart didnt kill him.

Buss wanted PJ back. Kup ran to coach K on a Kobe suggestion. Kup is lame. If not for PJ and Kobes relationship we would be screwed. Buss has the ULTIMATE bargaining chip with the front of the jersey along with $$$ offered. Kup should be competent. he barely is

no_dont wrote:So i understand your rant, on how Kup knows better than we, but does that validate his GM skills?

Rant? This is just another example of what I was referring to. Nothing in my previous post connotes ranting? I was putting forth a reasoned response. My opinion. A conclusion based upon the idea that Buss is in a better position to evaluate Mitch's abilities than you. And instead of adressing that point, you mischaracterize my post.

Sky wrote:

msb212 wrote:For thise of you winers, what exactly would you like Mitch to have done differenly. And no, you can't have shaq and Kobe, cause the big fatso wanted out.

Man how many times have I answered this question? Oh well, one more time with apologies to Gramps as I've answered the same question from him. Before you hit me with well that's just hindsight these were all things I was saying at the time (of the trade, on that draft day or prior to it, when the player was shopped, etc).

2000 Kong trade - Shift the #1 to NY from 2001 (an incredibly deep year) to 2002. Take Arenas. To Kupchak's credit he wanted Arenas and tried to trade back into that draft to take Gilbert. But he failed. Natch.

Deadline 2001 - Pull the trigger on last years for Jason Terry or Theo Ratliff. Ate the last years instead.

Summer 2002 - Full MLE on Chauncey Billups.

Deadline 2002 - Trade Pargo and a #2 for Trenton Hassell. He was shopped leaguewide before Chicago cut him, and after they cut him they picked up...Jannero Pargo.

Draft 2003 - Draft Barbosa not Cook.

Deadline 2003 - Trade Horry for Casell, was on the table and offered to them in the final hour of the deadline.

Draft 2004 - Trade #1 to Atlanta for Boris Diaw. If they keep the pick take Varejao, not the scarecrow.

Just do those suggested moves from 2002 on (except for Sam) and look at the roster:

SF Diaw, Walton
PF Odom, Turiaf
C Kwame, Mihm, Bynum
SG Kobe, Hassell
PG Billups, Barbosa

Read it and weep. I do.

How ugly but a true blueprint for losing and since Mitch has taken over and called the shots that's exactly what this franchise has been doing.

no_dont wrote:So i understand your rant, on how Kup knows better than we, but does that validate his GM skills? So Kup being GM and Buss having full faith in him payed a coach X-amount of $$$$$ last year, and he quit. Kup drafted a guy who luckily for Ronnie first, team second that his heart didnt kill him.

Buss wanted PJ back. Kup ran to coach K on a Kobe suggestion. Kup is lame. If not for PJ and Kobes relationship we would be screwed. Buss has the ULTIMATE bargaining chip with the front of the jersey along with $$$ offered. Kup should be competent. he barely is

Buss has faith in Mitch as the 7th calvary had faith in General Custer.

Some of you guys lack historic perspective and trust me, there is not more than two people here who could even come close to doing as good a job as Mitch is doing and they don't hack on him because they understand the complete job he is doing.

Mitch may not turn out to be a great GM but he is doing a decent job for the time being.

West was NOT as good as most of you think. West didn't draft Magic!! West wanted Moncrief not Magic! Sharman built Showtime and West and Mitch built the Shaq era. Remember that both those times it was actually Buss who wanted Magic, Shaq, Worthy and Kobe!! It was ALWAYS Buss who made the final decisions on his players. ALWAYS!!! Buss has ALWAYS been willing to step over his GM and TELL THEM WHAT HE WANTED.

Get your blowup dolls out boys, it's all you got!

i think a huge factor of why mitch doesn't like to pull off trades is probablly because he is quite scarred to do things. we had slava to get rid off, for some cap space, and he didn't unload it this year. i believe that mitch doesn't have enough power to get things done and that is why and how we got von wafer, which hasn't served us much this year.

Gramps wrote:

no_dont wrote:So i understand your rant, on how Kup knows better than we, but does that validate his GM skills?

Rant? This is just another example of what I was referring to. Nothing in my previous post connotes ranting? I was putting forth a reasoned response. My opinion. A conclusion based upon the idea that Buss is in a better position to evaluate Mitch's abilities than you. And instead of adressing that point, you mischaracterize my post.

Like you said in your post (kinda) You, Sky, myself are not privy to what Buss thinks of Kup or the inner workings of the org. If Jim is in fact gaining more power wouldnt that mean that Buss has less confidence in Kup than maybe you think? I am not a trade tracker so to sit here and come up with a lot of trades is silly. Bottom line is that Kup hasnt gotten the Job done. Had PJ not been getting 10mil(buss doing) we would have been toast, with Kups genius player moves.

no_dont wrote:

Gramps wrote:

no_dont wrote:So i understand your rant, on how Kup knows better than we, but does that validate his GM skills?

Rant? This is just another example of what I was referring to. Nothing in my previous post connotes ranting? I was putting forth a reasoned response. My opinion. A conclusion based upon the idea that Buss is in a better position to evaluate Mitch's abilities than you. And instead of adressing that point, you mischaracterize my post.

Like you said in your post (kinda) You, Sky, myself are not privy to what Buss thinks of Kup or the inner workings of the org. If Jim is in fact gaining more power wouldnt that mean that Buss has less confidence in Kup than maybe you think? I am not a trade tracker so to sit here and come up with a lot of trades is silly. Bottom line is that Kup hasnt gotten the Job done. Had PJ not been getting 10mil(buss doing) we would have been toast, with Kups genius player moves.

As you say, I don't know the inside workings. I realize that. That is why I am basing my assessment of Mitch on Buss' assessment of him, figuring Buss is a pretty smart guy.

But in your post you admit on one hand that you are not privy to the inner workings then say that the bottim line is Mitch hasn't gotten the job done. That is a contradiction. If you are not privy to the inner workings you can't possibly know what situations Mitch was faced with and what role he played in successes and failures.

I realize that no amount of rational argument will convince most of the Mitch haters. Because they just want to hate him. Mitch can't win. Anything good that happens, happened in spite of Mitch. Anything bad that happens is because of Mitch. Mitch is an idiot because he didn't make some pipe trade. Mitch is an idiot because he didn't get Spree. Mitch is an idiot because he didn't draft your favorite player. Mitch is an idiot because your mama never hugged you. Blah Blah Blah.

Gramps wrote:

no_dont wrote:

Gramps wrote:

no_dont wrote:So i understand your rant, on how Kup knows better than we, but does that validate his GM skills?

Rant? This is just another example of what I was referring to. Nothing in my previous post connotes ranting? I was putting forth a reasoned response. My opinion. A conclusion based upon the idea that Buss is in a better position to evaluate Mitch's abilities than you. And instead of adressing that point, you mischaracterize my post.

Like you said in your post (kinda) You, Sky, myself are not privy to what Buss thinks of Kup or the inner workings of the org. If Jim is in fact gaining more power wouldnt that mean that Buss has less confidence in Kup than maybe you think? I am not a trade tracker so to sit here and come up with a lot of trades is silly. Bottom line is that Kup hasnt gotten the Job done. Had PJ not been getting 10mil(buss doing) we would have been toast, with Kups genius player moves.

As you say, I don't know the inside workings. I realize that. That is why I am basing my assessment of Mitch on Buss' assessment of him, figuring Buss is a pretty smart guy.

But in your post you admit on one hand that you are not privy to the inner workings then say that the bottim line is Mitch hasn't gotten the job done. That is a contradiction. If you are not privy to the inner workings you can't possibly know what situations Mitch was faced with and what role he played in successes and failures.

I realize that no amount of rational argument will convince most of the Mitch haters. Because they just want to hate him. Mitch can't win. Anything good that happens, happened in spite of Mitch. Anything bad that happens is because of Mitch. Mitch is an idiot because he didn't make some pipe trade. Mitch is an idiot because he didn't get Spree. Mitch is an idiot because he didn't draft your favorite player. Mitch is an idiot because your mama never hugged you. Blah Blah Blah.

Is Mitch an Idiot? IMO- Yes. Does Buss trust him? If Jimmy has any input, even a tiny bit more than none, then I have to question the trust. Is Kup more the face of the GM duties or is he the guy. I am of the mindset with all this being said that I dont feel Mitch has veto power over PJ, or Even Jimmy for that matter. So is he to blame? Not for all. So the question arises again. Is he the GM? I do give credit to Mitch NOT Shaq for KM/GP. I have yet to see any creativity. Will he show some? I will see

no_dont wrote:Is Mitch an Idiot? IMO- Yes. Does Buss trust him? If Jimmy has any input, even a tiny bit more than none, then I have to question the trust. Is Kup more the face of the GM duties or is he the guy. I am of the mindset with all this being said that I dont feel Mitch has veto power over PJ, or Even Jimmy for that matter. So is he to blame? Not for all. So the question arises again. Is he the GM? I do give credit to Mitch NOT Shaq for KM/GP. I have yet to see any creativity. Will he show some? I will see

You can always have your opinions, mindsets and give credit where you choose. Whether that is based upon facts, conjectures, emotions, etc. is another issue. If you want to think Mitch is an idiot, have at it. It is a free country and I have no desire to think for you. But if you are interested in the truth of what you think, then knowleged, facts, and rational thinking are the pathway to get it.

I'm tapping out now.

Peace.

I too will end, BUT. All I have heard and Im sure most everyone else has is that Bynum was a Jim pick.

msb212 wrote:what a bunch of whining morons in this thread. Mitch has done a pretty credible job. Kwame turned out not to be a bust. Lamar has continued to evolve into the player we want him to be. Bynum is reagrded league wide as a find. Sasha actually shows some potential. Despite the last 3 games of the season, Smush was a steal. Turiaf is defintiely a great pick. Shaq is done, and we kept Kobe who will keep us at or near the top for the next 6 years. And we are in a position to make a major FA play next summer.

For thise of you winers, what exactly would you like Mitch to have done differenly. And no, you can't have shaq and Kobe, cause the big fatso wanted out.

consider this an official warning....

Sky wrote:

msb212 wrote:For thise of you winers, what exactly would you like Mitch to have done differenly. And no, you can't have shaq and Kobe, cause the big fatso wanted out.

Man how many times have I answered this question? Oh well, one more time with apologies to Gramps as I've answered the same question from him. Before you hit me with well that's just hindsight these were all things I was saying at the time (of the trade, on that draft day or prior to it, when the player was shopped, etc).

2000 Kong trade - Shift the #1 to NY from 2001 (an incredibly deep year) to 2002. Take Arenas. To Kupchak's credit he wanted Arenas and tried to trade back into that draft to take Gilbert. But he failed. Natch.

Deadline 2001 - Pull the trigger on last years for Jason Terry or Theo Ratliff. Ate the last years instead.

Summer 2002 - Full MLE on Chauncey Billups.

Deadline 2002 - Trade Pargo and a #2 for Trenton Hassell. He was shopped leaguewide before Chicago cut him, and after they cut him they picked up...Jannero Pargo.

Draft 2003 - Draft Barbosa not Cook.

Deadline 2003 - Trade Horry for Casell, was on the table and offered to them in the final hour of the deadline.

Draft 2004 - Trade #1 to Atlanta for Boris Diaw. If they keep the pick take Varejao, not the scarecrow.

Just do those suggested moves from 2002 on (except for Sam) and look at the roster:

SF Diaw, Walton
PF Odom, Turiaf
C Kwame, Mihm, Bynum
SG Kobe, Hassell
PG Billups, Barbosa

Read it and weep. I do.

You must get sick and tired of schooling these cats, Sky.

mitch kupchak is JIM BUSS